69 - A Culture of Creation with the Moyer Brothers

B01_19 - A Culture of Creation with the Moyer Brothers === James - Interjection: Can you truly create in a vacuum? Creators often find themselves going it alone in their worldbuilding, but I think they're missing out. Let's talk about the power of creating in community. Welcome to the WorldCraft Club podcast. A podcast for writers dungeon masters and other creatives who want to build worlds that will bring their audience back time and time again. I'm your host james and today i've got seth with me as well At the WorldCraft Club, we've always had this idea of community at the core. It's part of the reason why we call ourselves a club. We talk about the Worldbuilder's pyramid. there's immersion at the foundation, wonder in the middle and participation at the top. Though this idea of involving others in your creative process has always been present. We've struggled to adequately define its role in creative practice. So today we brought in a pair of collaborators to talk with us. Introductions --- Eli: I'm Eli, I am Max's conscience and sub genius. Um, no, I'm Max's partner in crime in our fantasy world. Max: Yeah, I'm Max I'm Eli's partner in crime when it comes to, to our worldbuilding. James - Interjection: They help Seth and I navigate our understanding of collaborative worldbuilding and added a lot of insight into their process. We begin, where all good stories do, at the beginning. The Beginning of Worldbuilding --- Max: so we were nailing down the timeline yesterday and what we've come up with for the origin story is a poorly lit basement of my best friend's house in third grade. His older brother took pity on us and didn't beat us for a moment to introduce us to this thing called Dungeons and Dragons. played for about 30 minutes. I don't really remember too much lead up. So again, it was quick and dirty. Um, got home and I said, Eli, I just played this amazing game. You're gonna love it. There was something about dice and books. We don't need any of that , all you do is like you, one person's walking down a hall and the other person tells them what happens and you like fight goblins and do cool stuff. So that kicked off. What then became sort of a primary exercise for us on our eight hour car rides among other things. Um, Our family has a house in Asheville, North Carolina. So that, that is what started what we very creatively called walking down a hall . Eli: It became, it was called that for, uh, like more decades. It is Max: often still referred to as that, but that began the sort of role play game and many years later sort of. Matured into what I would call worldbuilding. Eli: Yeah. I, I would say we'd had no intent to world build at all. It was a very reflexive way. It was one of the ways when we were younger that we could get along because when you have intelligences of our caliber and um, and so on, and yeah, that we were kind of Cats and dogs for a long time. And so this was a really constructive outlet and very imaginative and fun. So we, it just happened kind of organically. Had nothing Max: to do with Eli being in control of situations, James: I love that this, that's a very organic way for a setting to grow though. You know, it's, it's like you kind of start just, just telling stories. One of the things like we, we talk about a lot on, on the podcast is I, I think some people get too wrapped up in the worldbuilding of worldbuilding and they don't find out if it's stories well, so like, Eli: so I, I just, I wanna say I think that is key to our process and our experience. Um, in fact, I think, honestly, I don't know, it was just, I didn't ever use the word worldbuilding till the last. Couple years, but I think because we never set out to make a system, well we don't , we don't really have a lot of systems, in fact. But it just was about the experience, the creativity and even story came Alith bit later. You know, it was really about we, we didn't know it was really about being together in a fun way. And so I think that gave our world a lot of freedom and just sort of naturalness. none: I like that. Max: And then sort of chapter two came in college, just post-college for me when Eli was in Romania, no, Czech Republic, uh, sorry, Czech Republic. And had this sort of rediscovery of his own creativity as it applies our world. And that was the moment where, I think we kind of took it up a notch and there was some worldbuilding elements that emerged at that point. Map drawing. Um, Eli was very into language and the Czech language captivated him. to the point where I came to visit him and I was like, I can't pronounce any of those words. Eli: It's J Z K P r R. Can't you? Pronou? I need some vowels, pronounce Max: vowels here. Um, but that, that really kicked off, I'd say. You know, the second chapter of, of our world and worldbuilding in this world together. Collective Creativity --- James - Interjection: What began as a game to avoid punching each other on long road trips evolved into a setting that was co-created. Each one of them providing input collaboratively. This sort of creative muscle memory led them to an understanding of each other's place in the collected creative process. Max's writing the books with Eli, providing worldbuilding support and insight. But how does this practically work? Eli: I would say for our whole process. In fact, it's, it's a very existential like thing right now because Max is now publishing and getting our stuff out there. And so we've had a lot of conversations this summer, this year of like, what needs to happen? What do we need to build out, what doesn't? And one of the things we've, we've more or less agreed on is we, we are gonna keep the. The heart of it at the front. Like, we're not gonna serve the worldbuilding as, as a task master or something like, it's gonna be what we want it to be, even if it doesn't match all the metrics or the marketing, you know, if, you know Yeah, we, we want to do it well and Max especially, you know, yes, there will be some change, but it's like, no, we're not gonna, and we don't wanna sell out. You know, we, we just wanna do it for what it is. Uh, I think it's really important to us. James: There's there's kind of like there, there's, I don't like the term balance anymore. I like tension much better. Right? Like and um, there's, there's kind of like, there, there's a tension existing there between 'cause, 'cause in some ways worldbuilding is a bit of a marketing device and it is a, uh, it is a way of establishing genre and being able to look at somebody and say, well, You like Star Wars, like it's Alith like that, or like you like Lord of the Rings. It's sort of like that and that, and that gives them an idea. Oh, I'm thinking, you know, these sorts of scenarios, these sorts of characters, this kind of depth and like this sort of excitement that I feel like there's, there's a different excitement to me going Star Wars than there was Lord of the Rings. You're looking for that vibe. And then sort of, you also have on the other side of it, this fact that like you're trying to sell something that's like a, a genuine story that, that goes somewhere that is, uh, you know, it's character driven stuff. And like we, we have a lot of folks in our server who very curmudgeonly, uh, point out every time. It's like, it's characters, it's always characters, you know, and like it's, and that's, that's critical too. , and it sounds like part of the heart of your story as well is like kind of just your , your sibling relationship and like that kind of building out of that. And, uh, it, it strikes me that working together, you're able to keep each other honest in a way that might be harder without that accountability. Have you found that? Max: Well, that's one thing Eli and I were talking about yesterday is there's an element to this of sort of respecting the others' process and creativity. , I'm writing books, he's writing little snippets and short stories and, and chronologies and things. If. I steamroll over his idea of how something works. You have a conflict in the world, and so there is a respect for each other's cre, creative process and and also a collaboration. So when I have been writing, um, the books I've been working on, I will regularly pinging Eli say, Hey, what do you think about this? How do you think this fits into our history or, you know, the, the overarching, um, the overarching picture of the world, you know, the Brandon Sanderson idea of your, you, you write the iceberg and your reader sees just the tip. So he's created this giant world underneath, and I don't know that we've gone that far exactly, but, um, maybe, but there has to be some, something underneath to, to maintain continuity. , I think that's important to understand, like how you work together. Either you sort of do your own thing and you bring it all together and it just doesn't fit or work right. , or one person sort of dominates the other, or I think the way we've done it is let's use each other as sounding boards to kinda iron sharpen Zion, get this place into more of a, um, interesting and, engaging world that has continuity as well. Eli: Yeah. You said keep each other honest. I think that's a good way of putting it, because on the one hand we've written a lot separately. We have short stories and we create sort of, sort of like we, we, we just turn on one spotlight and one place in our world at one time and, and we're gradually lighting up more and more and gradually needing to grow the connections. And it's a commitment, like it, it's actually hard when you just make stuff up out of thin air to Make it consistent with something else you've made up out of thin air and something has to give. So in that way, um, we've had to say, no, it's been very much about the world. You know, I, I will come up with an idea and Max will just be like that I'm not using that. Like, I can't work with that for whatever reason. Uh, and, and, and I, it's coming from, it's coming from that point , of this doesn't. Like you said, kinda keeping each other honest about the world and it really works. But that works because we have a strong relationship. And so I feel like we've, we've developed, I think again, like I didn't really realize I knew this, but as we're talking about, I didn't really realize how much about our relationship it is because it, it, when there's safety. You have to have safety. To be creative, you have to be at ease. If you're not feeling safe, whether it's from the public or your publisher or your family or yourself, you know, then it's really hard to be free and creative. I would say impossible. So Max is, and I have created a safe space for each other, and there was, there was a point when I don't know when it was, but early on in the college, when it started again in college, like, Hey, let's make this, and I, you know, I was traveling and I, I, I bought paper when I was visitant, France. That's where our first map is on French paper That means James: It's Paer over there. Eli: papier, well, may we, and you know, got ink, pen and all this. It was like the world, world world that Max started saying things like, I really need your input. Hey, I, I want you to populate this scene with some stuff, some of your stuff. And he started giving me kind of, uh, endowing me with sort of my, my superpower, my voice, which was extremely empowering and fun. It was like, oh, I have something to actually offer, not just what I think. Likewise with Max wanting to publish, I've had to ask myself a lot like Here's what I want. Here's how I see it. Is this gonna stand in the way of him bringing this to market? And that's not what I want at all. I really want him to succeed in this, and I'm willing to lay things down for that. And so like I think the safe space of a relationship and makes real co creativity possible and. It's, you know, neither of Max could write totally like everything by himself. It, it would be his voice, but it would be totally sufficient. And I don't know that I could do everything for myself 'cause I don't get anything done. But, um, but by doing it together, we've definitely created something. Neither of us alone would've come up with. How Does this Practically Work --- seth_1_10-05-2023_060137: It seems like one of your Eli: of none: your seth_1_10-05-2023_060137: sort of none: sort of seth_1_10-05-2023_060137: superpowers or, or real advantages is your ability to say no to each other, none: no to each other, seth_1_10-05-2023_060137: right? And to respect the No. To respect the um, . The course correction and the adjustment, because your ultimate goal is the same, right? Communicating this world that you guys have poured your hearts into, none: your hearts into. seth_1_10-05-2023_060137: how do you, how do you think none: you think seth_1_10-05-2023_060137: the, Eli: the. seth_1_10-05-2023_060137: I guess the question I want to ask is, how clear have you been in conversation with each other about sort of your Your direction and your ultimate goal, or is it just sort of that has sprung up naturally and you're figuring it out as you go along? none: you go? Max: It's really come most recently through. My writing in, in part because prior to writing a book, there wasn't really the same level of consequence. Like Eli could create whatever he wanted in the world. And yeah. So, so backing up a, a, a step so to chapter two, and Eli was, um, in the Czech Republic and we were building out the world. The purpose was a video game at first. So we, we created That's right, a bound proposal that we sent to Electronic arts and be those like , all these none: Nice. Max: like nice over optimistic, uh, young college kids. Totally realistic of this, like that's right. So, so when we decided that wasn't gonna, Stick and Eli: aka we got rejected. Well, they didn't even read 'em. They're not allowed to. They're under contract with their own people. They say. Yeah. So they Max: say, anyway, move on. Our great ideas show up all over the place. Um, coincidence, I think not, um, . So then we transition it like, oh, let's, let's, let's turn this into a real, uh, board game. 'cause we had done it without any dice or books or boards as kids. Let's do it as a real board game. And so the first step was to write. Five to 10 page starter stories. So you read a story, I'm an elf, here's where I'm from, here's what I do. Now we start the game and Max Eli: added two zeros to those numbers, and has still on his first starter story, . Exactly. Max: Yeah. So that was always Like 30 minutes of our, of our gameplay every time was creating your character. And anyway, so we were gonna jumpstart that. Yes, exactly. A hun a hundred pages into my starter story, I was like, Hmm, this might not be a starter story. Uh, so that's, that's how I started writing. Uh, Zodiac is the name of book one of the trilogy, um, that I'm hoping to launch next spring. But that was, that was what really started the writing process, um, for me. And I started writing when my oldest daughter was not a year yet when I was in law school, and she's 18 now. So, uh, that one has been in, you do Eli: the math Max: in the works for a while. Uh, we've, I've since written a novella that I just put out. I think I sent you guys a, um, a copy of it. , There are now books in the world and that really ratchets up the consequences, right? And the need for continuity. So as a, as a quick example in, , what Eli was talking about in, in Zodiac, he shows up to this city and I said, Hey, can you write, can you inject some ywe? Ywe is the name of our world. Can you inject some Yan into this scene? And he wrote an awesome scene. With all these different animals and creatures and people showing up to the city. That was, that was just great. , there was a tea cellar , Eli: and it just happened. It wasn't my fault. Max: this old lady and she was on a unicycle and she came up to serve tea. And this is a, a second world pretty low magic kind of tol Tolkien esque, um, world with some, you know, creativity in nature and stuff. But so she starts serving tea out of a pouch in her back. Eli: Like that's part of her, it sort of opened up and it's steamy and it, she's, you know, and I was like, Max: that is so gross. I'm not max---eli_1_10-05-2023_060134: leaving Eli: that in. And I leaned back. I was like, that is totally like Totally gross. I have no idea why I wrote that. And that's fine. She's, she'll come out later Max: and I read it to my wife like, isn't this gross? none: She's Eli: like, that is awesome. Ah, vindication. So now Max: in the book, she's carrying, uh, you know, two cauldrons, whatever, but still on the unicycle, still purple skin. Like her Eli: grandmother has the pouch in the back. Yes. Max: Anyway, so there are things like that, and that's an example of a, the creativity and allowing each other. So that, I mean, that is in my published. Well soon to be published book that Eli has kinda injected some worldbuilding. Sure. And the course correction you're talking about. Um, yeah, it's a good example. James - Interjection: I think it's fair to say that vulnerability lies at the center of their creative powerhouse. Uh, early in their childhoods, they established a process. They would operate by. 'walking down a hallway. They were essentially practicing their improvisation skills and establishing room for them to cooperate with their storytelling. What's more, there's the establishment of the foundations of a creative social contract that allowed each of them to create freely. To hear Frank criticisms from the other, but understand that it was meant as a way to encourage and build up rather than to tear them down. As I grew older, these skills matured into a creative partnership where each has the power to say 'no' to the other. They have a clear knowledge of what the other offers and it allows them to work together, creating something that is coherent. James: There's like two components. There is. One is that, um, max recognizes . The need and has the vulnerability to say, seth_1_10-05-2023_060137: say, James: Hey, like, I think I could use some Eli Magic over here. You know, I need this shored up. I see this, this weakness in what I'm creating. Weakness may be the wrong word, but just like a gap, a place, a, a missing, a void that I can fill here Eli: . We each could probably fill those voids in our own ways, but he's definitely making a choice to say like, how can, how can we bring this in? So we've, we've realized, you know, this is as, as fun as it is because we, we get to do it together. And with kids and work and now living in different countries across the world, it's very easy for things to fall through the crack. So we give each other, you know, you know, plenty of Rane to, yeah, do what you need to do. But, you know, I would say that I'm really happy to, to. To have a place to keep being able and it keeps me going, you know, uh, doesn't just gather dust on the shelf because Max is like, we're gonna have a deadline. James: we're we're gonna do things. Yeah. Eli: That sounds terrible. Tolkien's Writing and Deep Worlds --- James: the desire to tinker and optimize forever is a strong one among many Worldbuilder's. You know, it's, there's a, there's a desire to sort of get it, get it perfect. I think, um, there's a, there's a lot of folks who set out to essentially create tolkien's world. Um, and I think that, seth_1_10-05-2023_060137: I think that, James: I think that's an . That's an expedition in error, to be honest. Like I think, um, Tolkien also, uh, was not the worldbuilder that I think people imagined he was. I think he was extremely focused on a couple of things that he really developed because he loved them. And so you find things you love. And then you make more of that. And then people think the world is really big just because you made something really beautiful about something you liked a lot. Eli: , you do you know, uh, Diana Glare who wrote. At a academic level about Tolkien and Lewis and the inklings. She, she did this like her a PhD on not just the inklings and sort of oh, who they were. And, but she, she said, okay, we've, we've heard about these, but what happened day to day? And so she went into family letters and like, got all the primary re data and wrote this tome. And the editors said like, that's fascinating, amazing. No one in the right mind will read that. So she She distilled it to a book called, uh, band or Snatch, and it's a sort of popular packaging of her academic scholarly research on the inklings. And down to this date, this, this Journal entry was written and this letter was written, and then this change was made in this story. So we can see that this conversation, it really fine grain. And um, so a lot has been said about that group and about Tolkien. But the, one of the big takeaway for me, takeaways for me was that Tolkien. Loved hobbits. He loved their etymology, their genealogies, the etymology of their language, their, how they cooked breakfast, and that's really all he wanted to write about. And his group said, you , you have to keep going with this. He came up with this ring idea. They're like, you have to write a story about this. Uh, okay, trilogy. So like, it came out with a lot of pushing. And but, but the kernel of it was he just wanted to hold up, no pun intended, and get to know these little people, you know, and have so much fun with it. I really relate to that 'cause I write arcane non-narrative aspects to the world. Not 'cause they, we need them, but because when I sit down with a typewriter, this I, we, one of my, one of my contributions, well assume it's a contribution. One of my outputs is encyclopedia entries from, you know, a certain, a certain group of scholars and monks. And, and I, I just, you know, it's a voice of all of my academic. Things just channeled into this, like super nerdy, kind of really pretentious sounding, uh, these entries and about Max: a carnivorous moss or something. Eli: Oh, and, and so good. And they're just fun. But for me it's, it's some of the most potent output because it's some of the most fun. And when I sit down to, to drive some narrative forward with other stories. It's also can be fun, but I, it's, it's a different muscle for me. So I, I think, um, I'm just affirming like the, the, the joy at the heart of it. I, I just wouldn't wanna Yeah. Max: Lose that. And you can, you can appreciate, um, Seth, I know for sure you, you are a writer, but you can appreciate having that content to draw on too as a writer. So, um, you mentioned Tolkien, and this is Been sort of a, a question. I think it, again, didn't, wasn't a question when we created the game and sort of as kids did it, but in creating these books, how much do you do original and how much do you borrow from folklore and fairytale and lk? I mean, we live in a, in a moment where people are very conversant in fantasy in a way they just weren't 20 years ago. Um, and so the, the choices. We have made in, in, and I have made in writing is let's borrow a lot of that so you're not creating 20 different races that people have never heard of and have to understand. You're creating five or six and then you're using, you know, concepts that are familiar in, in trolls and mm-hmm and elves and brownies. And so you have like different, different elements in there, but then also injected with some very original. Content like what Eli's talking about. Um, so that's been an interesting balance when, you know, a lot of people do this with a magic system and they have very intricate original ideas in a magic system. As I mentioned, ours is sort of low magic, ancient enchanted relics, and the nature has a lot of mystery in it. And there are powers at work, but it's, it's, it's not a magic system. Mm-hmm. . Um, and so yeah, how, how you kind of walk that line and. And Eli's creativity, I think, has brought us kind of up a level where I'm happy just to sort of write a narrative in a, in a Tolkien world, it's like, okay, let's, let's inject some more kind of original ideas. Um, and, and then yes, using common language, listening to one of your earlier podcasts, um, Asimov's, uh, comment about like, he's still gonna put on his boots and go out into this, uh, science fiction world, right? Versus the science fantasy, like, How do you use common language, but also how something distinct and, um, and, and different and, and as it relates to worldbuilding. Seth, we had talked about this Alith bit. The other piece that we've been exploring recently is worldbuilding history. So like when we created the game, we created the map , you know, like this is what the world looks like. But now I'm writing a novella 200 years earlier. Maybe the world didn't look quite like that 200 years ago. And how has it changed and why has it changed? Those are questions we haven't, again, maybe gone, uh, Robert Jordan, a million pages of notes, um, where every detail is worked out, uh, in the background, but you wanna work out enough for continuity again. And so how do you build a big world, a deep world, a rich world, um, but also leave time for things like writing Interjection? --- James - Interjection: The takeaway here is that max, who is writing the work is able to 'offload' some of his creative thinking to Eli has the worldbuilder. Both of them have different muscles they're using and both are willing to yield to the other, depending on what's needed. for the story. There's a mutual appreciation for each other's craft that supercharges their process and allows each of them to go somewhere. They couldn't, without the others help. At this point, Seth started to ask a little more about their use of history in their worldbuilding and Eli breaks down his approach. A Deep World --- Eli: I found that I really abhorred the, the, uh, omniscient narrator voice none: Mm Eli: my writing. Um, and Max mentioned this started when I was living in Czech Republic. Um, it was just this explosion of, of input, well, it was this massive, it was this dump of, of cultural and language input that just started sparking and produced a bit of, kind of an explosion of output for me and for us. And since then I've lived in, um, several other countries and as I've said, I now live still in another country. And so, and, and also Professionally I work in, in the area of culture and ethnography. So what I found is, you know, what I really love to bring to the writing is this idea that there's not actually just one authorial, . Point of view, but actually if you wanna know what's happening, you've gotta get down to the ground level and ask those people there. Um, now I probably can't do that everywhere, in every society and every place and every part of the timeline, but I would much rather have a character tell his version of the story and have maps that disagree because different people wrote them, drew them at different times with different agendas, then try to iron out this kind of grid. Top down. That to me, feels, goes in the direction of, oh, this is a lot of work and it's Alith soul killing. Even though it could add consistency in things, I'd rather have it be Alith more like none: multiple choice Eli: multiple choice. Multiple choice. Even grungy of like, well, we don't have all the information between here and there, because actually in real life we don't have all the information between here and there. James: life. .Yeah. There, there are entire fields of study devoted to figuring out what's going on none: what's going on here. James: you, you know what I mean? Like we still don't understand it, Eli: understand it. And so I found that I wanted to fill that out by letters and, and you know, that, that's why I think the, the encyclopedia entry appeals to me because it's not, I'm telling Someone else here. What happened over there? It's, I'm finding out, you know, you, we talked a lot about this with other red, like you, the discovery process as you write, you know, things unfold, , everything. It's really fun. Um, and I want there to be that color and that, um, the complexity that arises when two neighboring peoples have different versions of James: That's very rich. Yeah. Iceberg - Fans Building it OUt --- seth_1_10-05-2023_060137: , a question for you , on the slightly more technical end. Um, as you start publishing stories in this space, none: a, seth_1_10-05-2023_060137: are you going to leave most of the ice. Underwater, are you going to be, none: going to be, seth_1_10-05-2023_060137: packaging all of that stuff, all of that ice in a way that can be sort of lifted to the surface and given to people? What are your thoughts? about Max: Yeah, great question about that. I think our ultimate vision that we have discussed is to create this world and this place. That we can then populate with all kinds of stuff. And so in my ideal world, you fast forward a decade and the trilogy I'm writing is out there that, you know, you have some novellas out there. Eli has some stories that have been published that you have mapped 10 Eli: volumes of Encyclopedia bound and coming to you by U S B S Exactly. Um, Max: yeah, but no, you, you know, I, I, I love Obviously he's sort of the master at this, but Sanderson, you know, the, the Wiki on his site where all these fans have built out the iceberg, right? I mean, they've built out all the little details of what's happening underneath the service and, and wouldn't it be great if you have this big group of people totally invested in this world who have read stories throughout its history and are just waiting for that board game you're finally ready to release, you know, like, That, that I think is the ultimate goal is to have, have the world pretty rich. And so I think yes, you, you to create that, you do kind of release snippets and, and, and it, it gives you creative license, I think, you know, for the Elf Quilly to write a letter. Oh yes. And hey, it shows up on. The mind's eyesight and the fans who are invested in the world are like, oh, that's so cool. I didn't know that piece of, um mm-hmm. of the world. And so it, it gives sort of an evergreen creativity to the world. Um, so I think that would be the, the ideal. Now who the heck knows how this journey actually unfolds? We're at the front end of Eli: it, but that's, I mean, I would say we've discovered that. In getting close to publishing. Definitely. I've heard more from you that this what really matters. Like Max has never said, I'm going to, I wanna be a write, like, be a writer. And it's definitely not for the money, it's not for the fame. You know, the, the motivation of getting an out there is really a sharing motivation. And I've been kind of, it's been interesting for me to see you say, like, it, I, the, the breath holding is, are people gonna want to be part of the world or. If they're not, it's okay. Like we'll do our thing. You know, we don't, it's not like there's identity tied up in it. And if not, but that's the big question is like, will people like this as much as we will? Not, is it good? Do I count? You know, we're beyond those existential questions. 'cause look at us like, you know, age and we've been doing this and that's not what's in it. But, but I think for Max especially, it's like, People like this that will be so motivating and fun. Like I've asked him in 10 years, like, how many more books do you wanna write? And it's not, here's my plan, it's, well, if people really love it, I'll motivate me and he'll be getting up early and he'll be cranky on a lot more. And if it's sort of Peters and people are like, this is weird. And we always knew you were weird, but now we really know you're weird. And, um, that'll be fine. But it, you know, we, uh, won't generate the energy to, to do as the same things, Relational Worldbuildingw --- James - Interjection: What I love about their answer to this question of how much of the iceberg are you leaving unveiled is that they kind of say, "well, it depends how much people are interested in what they want to write. How much of the iceberg they want to make. In some ways it's acknowledging something that Seth and I have long suspected. That the true Worldbuilder's are the readers. Max has already practiced giving away. Some of his authority is and authored to his brother, Eli. Why not do a little bit more and hand it to your fans. This is the ultimate incarnation of participation in your worldbuilding inviting folks outside your creative team to contribute to your world's Wiki. And just enjoy what they're adding to your own. Seth. And I turn the discussion to our basic breakdown of worldbuilding. For those of you who are new emerging wonder, and participation, we view as the three core pillars of worldbuilding. Now, one of these is a bit of a black sheep participation. It's this idea that we've kind of always had, but it's alluded to clear definition. Though. I see art as a partnering process in which your audience, in many ways, co-create with you. We've always had a hard time clearly explaining the connection despite sensing its presence. Eli and max, I think has zeroed in, on some of the missing pieces of the puzzle and helped with this discussion to clarify how others cooperate in the worldbuilding process. , Eli: There is a, a well-rehearsed myth of the, of the lone creative in, in the Western ethos and, and mindset and sort of mythology about itself. And the research shows even with people who believe that there is no such thing, there's no such thing as solo creation at all, and even when the act of writing or painting happens alone I'll just put this out there. There's a, a, a scholar named Miha Mihai, which is spelled just like it sounds, . And, uh, he, he has a book, uh, a couple books he create came up with flow theory, which is really influential. Everyone who talks about flow, getting the flow, it goes back to him. He's an American Hungarian and he has a book called Creativity. And one of the things he talks about in creativity is how they have multiple players. You have a person or community, but you have people who receive. What is made. And if people won't, don't receive it, then it doesn't register and it can't go forward in the culture. Um, and then on the ethnographic front, you have not just do they receive it as, as gatekeepers, but you have all these different players that actually enable a thing to happen, you know? Um, and you can unpack that. But I think if we can let go of the solo. Um, creator idea and just take a deep breath and relax and realize that it's like creativity is not a zero sum game. 'cause sometimes you do end up like, oh, we're gonna have a writer's group, but it's really just a tit for tat. Like, okay, I'm just, well not mission. Yes, I'm, and I'm just enduring what you're reading so that you, so that you will endure mind. And that's not a very good relationship, you know? So I think we have to connect at a deeper level where it's not just. The utilitarian, you know, any utilitarianism crushes, it's very dehumanizing, and so anything that becomes just about a utility crushes souls and people along the way on some measure. And, and, and so that applies all over the board from being a boss and a business to being a parent, to a teacher, to a creator. So I think coming together around an area of passion and fun, like keeping fun as sort of like serious play, right? Mm-hmm. .Yeah. Yeah. That idea I think is absolutely essential. And that will enable people to be in relationships around creativity that . They're not controlling and it's not just about the bottom line or, you know, finishing the project. It's, it's, that's almost becomes ancillary to the relationship or seth_1_10-05-2023_060137: Hmm. Eli: incidental to the relationship. James: , this is a missing piece to something. Seth and I have, have really been trying to like, articulate, because a, a lot of it has been like the, the first thing we did when we got on this podcast was we joined a bunch of worldbuilding groups and, um, I have now left all of those world growing none: all of those work. James: I just sort of didn't like, I, I sort of . Couldn't, couldn't really see what they were bringing to the table. 'cause a lot of it was mostly one upmanship, right? Tit for tat. It was, it was sort of people putting an idea out there, none: idea out. James: but I, I don't think they really wanted to have that sort of serious play element to it where it was like, there's back and forth. It was hard to grow and I kept trying to put my finger on why seth_1_10-05-2023_060137: why? none: Why? James: Why is there this disconnect in worldbuilding where people, they build these like ships in a bottle and then they all show them to each other and everyone kind of goes, yeah, but here's my ship in a bottle. And like people aren't making stuff to share it. And this idea of just that, that collaboration not just being desirable, but really essential to like really light something on fire, you need a none: fire. Eli: You a lot of people. James: And y'all had the advantage of Eli: just take advantage of starting there. Okay. I I'm gonna go Alith deep on this. I'll let you guys do this in editing what you want, .Um, but I think it's undeniable for Max and me that so, so I think one reason people don't do that is they've never experienced it. seth_1_10-05-2023_060137: mm-hmm. James: Yeah. Eli: They don't have a model, and it's not just being modeled or saying the facts, but being, having felt it and lived it, you know, we both have a, a shared faith background that really informs our world. Not because we're trying to make anything allegorical, we actually resist that. Totally. But because we are for, for us, our faith experience, our understanding of God is relational and the fun, the fundamental relationship that we have with God is one of. When I say grace, you might go into a religious sort of, but, but when I say grace, I actually mean free, a free relationship where God is not requiring things of me in order to make ends meet or to get to a certain point. The whole reason that I exist was 'cause he did some serious play and made a universe that he didn't need. none: Hmm. Eli: So that is actually written into every leaf and every cup of tea. Like the whole universe is a generous gift. Well, I may not even be able to consciously articulate that, but if I'm living in that even Alith bit, then I will be able to go there, you know, and, and bring that to what I do. And I think a lot of people don't have that as their understanding of the James: and in, in in a lot of ways, children none: ways Children's, James: right? Like and that's the thing that's amazing .Vulnerability in children's play is remarkable. To watch, like my son doing different voices is one of my favorite things for him to do. Said I'm the mechanic, I'm coming in here, and he'll just start doing that and he has not even Alith bit of self-consciousness about it, like he just dives in and somewhere along the way we get jaded. I. I think, I think there's a lot to that and it kind of, for me, this expands a lot on the participation idea. 'cause it's been something I've had a really, really hard time articulating. And I think I've got the content for the course now, Seth, on this. 'cause every time me and Seth have been putting the course together, immersion, I've been able to just sort of say, this is what this looks like. This is what it feels like and this is kind of how you do it. And then with Wonder, similar thing, you know, leave. Parts of your stories, untold leave threads for people to tug on. And then participation has been like, I dunno, cosplay, fanfic. And now I'm kind of like, no, no, no. This is seth_1_10-05-2023_060137: is Max: is James: feedback, this is vulnerability, this is humility. This is a need to, to open up what you're doing to other people in a way that you can receive none: leave James: feedback from them. That like feedback almost feels like the, the wrong word. There has to be something warmer for it. It's kind of like seth_1_10-05-2023_060137: kind of Eli: it's kind like James: It's messier than that. It's kind of like letting somebody sort of come in and, and mess with your crap . Like you kind of have to like be able to, they have to be able to put a hand on it in a way to help you. And, uh, you have to be humble enough. Um, and you have to have that safety within that relationship and order to engage in, and, and I like this term, serious play. seth_1_10-05-2023_060137: You also have to have unified vision to some extent. And it doesn't. Yeah, it doesn't have to be. It doesn't have to be that you necessarily are both imagining the same none: the same seth_1_10-05-2023_060137: end goal, but you have to have the same desire none: buyer seth_1_10-05-2023_060137: Because you can, you can come up with a million ideas inside the space. We talk about boundaries a lot, and we talk about understanding in worldbuilding how boundaries give you the freedom to explore. Whereas where when you completely remove the boundaries, when you completely remove the limit, then creativity becomes incredibly hard. And uh, none: and seth_1_10-05-2023_060137: Those boundaries, which are really acting. As you know, guide rails seem to be really important in this relational worldbuilding, because if both of you are going in opposite directions, and I think this is what happens to people a lot, they'll start worldbuilding with somebody else and they'll be like, oh, well I want this. And the other person will be like, well, I want this. Right? And because they're so disparate, because there's no uniformity in. Their ultimate goal, they just end up in different places and, and it's impossible to reconcile those desires. Whereas it sounds like none: sounds like seth_1_10-05-2023_060137: in good relational worldbuilding, you are none: you are seth_1_10-05-2023_060137: starting with the same desires. You're starting with the same, um, none: um, seth_1_10-05-2023_060137: ultimate goal, which is not none: is not seth_1_10-05-2023_060137: my vision coming to life, but is rather Our vision coming to life and us having a lot of fun along the way. none: the way. And seth_1_10-05-2023_060137: And because of that, none: of that seth_1_10-05-2023_060137: you get that back and forth of, well, what about this? Hey, that's a really cool idea. What if none: cool idea. What if we Eli: nuanced it this way, Seth? Do you feel like people who you've talked to, or James who do worldbuilding, do you feel like people know why they get into it? I mean, I wonder if people have this idea, get into it, but they don't actually understand their vision. Not like the vision of the world, but like their bigger vision. seth_1_10-05-2023_060137: I think that they don't, I think a lot of people I've talked to none: talked to seth_1_10-05-2023_060137: when I start talking about the way this makes you feel and why you're doing it in the first place, a lot of them sort of look at me blankly and are like, oh yeah. none: oh yeah, seth_1_10-05-2023_060137: I guess I am doing this because it makes me feel a certain way because I want other people to feel a certain way. But I do think that that's missing from a lot of, a lot of conversation. And, and I also think that, you know, when you start there and whether Eli: and whether seth_1_10-05-2023_060137: you two consciously started there or not, I think you started there. Um, Eli: Um, seth_1_10-05-2023_060137: when you start there, it gives you none: gives you, seth_1_10-05-2023_060137: It gives you something to build towards and build from simultaneously. That is really powerful. That's why we talk about fairy cake all the time. That's why we talk about a singular idea from which everything spawns, right. Max: I think that has has come up for us as well. Again, just over the course of time of these different chapters of the creativity and worldbuilding, we have on a few in occasions stopped and said, Like, why, what, what are we doing this none: mm. Max: And Eli has asked me that with the writing too. Like, okay, so you have this book. Is this gonna be a book We go print, you know, 30 copies of, and then our families have it on the shelf. And that's cool. So our grandkids say, oh, that's a book my, you know, grandfather wrote, or are we gonna really put it out there? And if we're gonna put it out there, why, how? What changes, like some of those questions. And there is a tension, especially, I mean, again, you, you guys probably know this too, but when you're talking about traditional publishing, it's kind of a scary, a scary idea to introduce that. And, and, and that's a, a path that I had explored, um, over the last couple years and, and now happily headed down the, the indie publishing path. But, um, but when you talk about some of this stuff, That idea, that tour shows up and says, we want that, but we don't want that, that we want that to be look like this. There's a lot of tension in this topic when as a writer that just didn't exist when we were making our own world or making a a game proposal, but a. am I a good writer? Is this good? Like all those questions, like you're, you're now entering a craft. It's different than just a pure creative exercise, right? And so a lot of those questions do come in and you're putting it out as a way to invite people in. But right now it's a very specific channel and it's a well-worn path that has all this other stuff that comes with it. And so I think that the tension has really ratcheted up there as an author where, know, again, I. Thankfully, and I'm very thankful that this is not how I'm looking to support my family because that's just a, a totally different exercise and and the way we're going about it, I think preserves some of the authenticity of, of the world in a way that yeah, I think a lot of Worldbuilder's get challenged quickly on mm-hmm. and start losing ground. Mm-hmm. Eli: Mm-hmm. two are better than one, you know, and so there's some, there's some balance and ballast there. Um, 'cause Max you're definitely taking more of that and feeling it a lot more than I'm right. It's easy for me to sit back with nothing on the line. Like, yeah, we don't need to submit our stuff to the public opinion. But, you know, the fact that that is a bit what we're doing, so it, it's helpful to, to have a, have a team. Closing --- James: Yeah. I think I, I think that's, um, partly for, for time. Um, that's probably a really good place to close. Um, so the, the last question really is like, where can we find your stuff? How can folks find you and get in touch with you? Eli: If you come to my basement, I have some things I wrote on my typewriter, none: excellent. seth_1_10-05-2023_060137: That's awesome, Max: Max So we, we just, um, like actually two days ago, uh, opened or formed Minds Eye site. Eli: So our, our whole project is under the umbrella of the name Mind's Eye. Walking down a hall, graduating became Mind's Eye. Yep. Max: Nice. Exactly. Yeah. So Mind's eye.site right now is just to redirect to my author site, which is max moyer wrights.com. Um, we hope again for that Mind's Eye site page to grow into the, where the world lives on the internet. Um, so that's the best starting place right now, and everything else can be found through there. James - Interjection: So that about, does it. This one was longer than usual, partly because I wanted to invite you all into this conversation. And it seemed wrong to cut parts of it. It highlights some key missing components in many of the creative spaces that I've been in and underscores the value of community in the work of making. I hope you enjoyed listening to it as much as Seth, Eli, max, and I enjoyed recording it. Some key takeaways: for you. One. Community might be the most important tool that you're missing out on. many creative communities are composed of a lot of people trying to do exactly the same thing. You have writers talking to writers. There's value there for sure. But how many readers and fans are you interacting with, or potential readers and fans? How many people are truly invested in your work that you can share with them and receive active feedback from them? Or is the group really more about tit for tat one person shares their idea mostly then waits for another turn to share their idea again. Two. When you're in those creative partnerships, it seems even more important to have a clarity of vision when you're creating that informs the world. You're making. You, and the ones you're making with, need to understand where your limits lie. This allows you to know which worldbuilding elements you might welcome from your audience or creative partners and which ones you might reject. In some ways operating and creative cultures requires greater knowledge and clarity on what your trying to make. Even as you cultivate the humility to take on ideas and critiques of your work. I think there's a third point here as well. This concept of serious play. You don't have to make something that is useful. Your work can simply be play. The thing that's remarkable about children is that their primary job in early life is just playing. They act out different scenarios with dolls, test their strength at the playground, and practice movement, social and emotional skills. while they do this. It's what shapes and forms them as they become adults. This serious play and practice. We lose that sense of play being important. As we grow older, creative communities are a place where you can and should get seriously silly. So I want to give you the confidence to do that without having to immediately assess each product's value. Yes, it's valuable to make useful things. But play and practice to master the craft are part of that value and part of your value as a creator. Okay. So there it is. some ideas on how to effectively operate in a writing community, how those tools are essential and much needed for your worldbuilding. If you want to join a community that endeavors to support this model, then please join us on our discord. A link is available in the show notes, and as ever, if the episode has been useful to you, please go ahead and give us a glowing review on your favorite podcasting app. I'm with that, for Eli, max, and Seth. I'm James. And this has been another episode of the WorldCraft Club podcast. Thank you so much for listening.