55 - Cultivating a Captivating Setting - Discussion with Andrew Zimba

B01_06 - Ardalencor === Pre-Intro --- What is it with castles and fantasy settings, the thick walls, even matter when your enemy can fly. Or when one man can become a mobile artillery in placement or a team of special ops can turn invisible. How do we include high fantasy elements into a grounded medieval setting that feels realistic and immersive, but still elevating, wondrous and exciting. Let's cultivate. Uh setting Introduction --- Welcome to the WorldCraft Club. I am your host, James and we are a podcast all about creating deep immersive settings for your audience to come back to time and time again, today's topic is a tricky one, and it's all about one of our favorite words. Tension. Two seemingly opposing ideas that when juxtapose, paradoxically create both the solid grounding and the exciting, expansive possibilities that we really want in our settings. But don't forget if this show is useful to you go ahead and give us a five star review on your favorite podcasting platform it is insanely helpful to us and if you don't quite think we make the five stars drop us an email Our contact details are in the link tree in the show So today we're talking about introducing fantastical elements into otherwise earth, realistic settings, getting that perfect mix of realism and wonder it's a big topic. So we In some help hi, I'm Andrew Ziba. I'm a medieval fantasy writer and author of In Times of War A Tale Of Ardalencor. Now, before we get started here in earnest, I think it's important that we get a grip on the type of world Andrew's creating. So we asked him that question, that great question. You should ask every author. What's your book. About What the Book's About --- it's a tale of the nation of Ardalencor, but really based on the individuals who inhabit the realm. And it's a fast-paced, multi-point of view, story, really focused on the lives and times of people during immense struggle, uh, upheaval, Betrayal. You know, very simple concepts of friendship, loyalty, but in a very immersive world. Andrew had introduced himself to me as an amateur historian, and I'd gotten a chance to start reading his book available in the show notes, by the way. And I noticed that there were many references to medieval history and culture in what he was writing. There was a density to it, a grounded-ness to it, amidst the fantasy elements. I was getting a bit of a george martin vibe. so i asked them about it George RR Martin Influence --- Yes, I would say George, George Martin definitely was an influence. I've wanted to write a book for probably 20 plus years, and the ideas just kind of lingered around. I'm a huge history buff, so a lot of the intrigue and machinations that you find in history, which also inspired George Martin, same for me as well. And I think he was part of the catalyst of running this particular book when I saw Game of Thrones and, and started to read it myself in terms of here's multiple vantage points of, you know, central events, but seen from multiple different sides. And it's difficult to write history if you're following someone in an army because a lot of that time is down time, So that's what I struggled with with writing historical fiction was how do I make things interesting for a character who, if they're gonna follow events, you know, this army is gonna stop for months, so what happens there? So for me, starting with a blank slate was actually easier in terms of I can. I can make things up, I can create it and I can move the action around. So it's, you get a cohesive story, but told from multiple points of view and you get different angles on, on the same events. So yeah, that was a big, that was a big inspiration to me saying, You know what, I, I can do this. So this is, this is the method I'm gonna take. So, Multi-Viewpoint Same As Historical Record --- it's, it's fascinating to me cuz I, I see, I see those parallels in a love of history and um, you know, it's, when we read through history, I feel like we're kind of collecting evidence from. Different vantage points and different viewpoints throughout it. You don't get to choose to get that one perspective all the way through. You get fragments and it feels like part of the job of the practice of history would be to form a cohesive narrative out of all the little bits that you get, if that makes any sense. And it seems almost like your book is a reverse engineering of that. Yeah, most definitely. And I tried to use history as inspiration, but not model it on any one particular period in history. I wanted it to be something where I didn't know what was gonna happen and there were additional beats of, um, I'm here, but what happens next? And I wasn't necessarily following a broader historical narrative. What would these characters do next? Not that it's the best thing to do, not that it's the perfect thing to do, but based on whatever is going on with them, based on their own limitations, their own advantages, pressure being put on them from even their own supporters or different factions, where do they get forced to next? And that was really part of the creative process of. Not necessarily where this book is gonna end, at least initially. I mean, it all came together and uh, definitely an element of planning is, or more than an element of planning is certainly needed. But to me it was the discovery of when I would get stuck to say, What happens next? What would these people do next? And that was, that was really the richness of Worldbuilding. I've heard that you can divide novelists into a few distinct camps. Uh, spectrum might be a better way of wording it. There's plotters who plan things out concretely. They know what's coming next. Who's doing what they know, not only where they're going, but how they're going to get there. Then you have pantsers who fly by the seat of their pants. They have a sense of where they're going and they may have some plot points in mind, but mostly they just hammer keys and outcomes, a story. They let editors figure out the rest. There's another type though. Uh, Gardner. Essentially a gardener sets up their world, their story, their characters, and cultivates them I'd argue that what Andrew is doing here is a form of gardening. Using the fertile soil of a medieval fantasy setting, something that everyone's familiar with. Following that passion of historical fiction then saying, given these circumstances, What should this character do next? I think this is a fascinating approach and can lead to some rich character development and even richer world development. But more on that Next, we started talking about some sources of inspiration for this kind of work. Where he got some of his worldbuilding ideas from. Other Venues of Worldbuilding --- Yeah, this is my, this is my first book. I've done Worldbuilding in other, let's say, other forums like Civilization Two or d and d or things like that, c4. Uh, so that S Civ two. It's been a minute. Sorry. it's, it's, it's, I'm dating myself, but it's, it's classic. Civ four is another great game with a multiplayer, and that kind of taught me about building a world and are you setting up a world or are you setting a world in motion? In terms of things may look to be like on equal footing, but. 50 turns in, a hundred turns in, they look very differently just in terms of linear progression or research capabilities or things and playing with multiple friends. It was interesting to see what I thought was parody as people are playing. Like, did you mean to make this as difficult as, uh, as you did for me? I'm like, No, I, I I didn't intend that. I'm sorry. So just kind of looking at multiple factions, multiple dynamic players, and also the same thing within d&d. kind of. Everybody wants to win. Everybody wants to do their best. And how do all these forces collide? That was a lot of good, uh, good fodder for me in terms of thinking through, Okay, I wanna write, I wanted to write a story that was very simple at one level. In terms of values of, you know, friendship, comradery, just the, Yeah. the, the extreme tension of and betrayal of war, but at the same time layering in all these intricate levels that hopefully add to the story if people aren't interested in like, They, they grasp it on a visceral level, but then if they wanna explore further, there's all these little hints and notes that, uh, that go along with it as well. But just seeing some of the reality of that with playing with friends, whether D and d or siv, it kind of, kind of gave me an insight of, um, how things actually fit together when they're launched. And then just trying to build the world. One of the hallmarks of medieval fantasy is the, Yeah. if, if you, let's just talk about d and d. If you put a castle like the greatest, strongest, most defensible European castle, you put it in D&D and immediately it's indefensible, it's obsolete, right? With the monster manual, with all of the spells, with wild shape, with uh, you know, different, uh, ancestors where you can fly different, uh, you know, And you quickly run through all the spell lists or even some of the monsters that can burrow or you've got a wizard that can polymorph for a druid that can wild shape as, as I mentioned, it's quickly like, how do you defend this castle? Yeah. You only build the castle. You spend all that time, all that money just in doing it because it works. It's a full, it's a force multiplier, right? You can, you can hold this particular building, this fort with very few people. Yeah. Right to put your stamp and your imprint in the land. But if you put it in d and d, unless you start to think about what are all of the defenses, what are all the countermeasures that have to be in place or you start, this is, this is my own process. I'm saying you, but just kinda speaking generally, this is my process, I think for everybody should build the world that they want, but this is just just my process of asking question. I think that's great. uh, invisibility, How do you counteract that or disguise self, or everybody loves charm person, right? So with all these things, if these are present in your world, What are the defenses, especially for those who are most powerful and most knowledgeable in the world, they would be aware of these things. Now, maybe there isn't a exact defense to each thing, but should be for a lot of these. Otherwise, why would you build such an expensive structure if it immediately becomes untenable? So a lot of it for me was, how does all this fit together? Because I wanted to have one, It's kind of a national struggle level that's kind of in, that's kind of in the background. Like Worldbuilding to me is the iceberg and the story. Character driven, drama driven. That's that's the tip of the iceberg. Yeah. Yeah, So how do all these things feed up, even if it's behind the scenes or things I'm kind of thinking about, and maybe it's just one or two lines in the story. but how do all these things feed together? And I thought I've, I've gotta be more, I've gotta be more restrictive with magic in some of these things. I like the mot, I like the motif of Dragons and Griffins, but just my, my book isn't dragon driven. I think there's, there's enough prominent books out there with that. But, uh, I wanted to have the imagery of it. Like I wanted to have that as a recollection and something in the memory. Of the people, but basically dragons don't exist currently. And it was basically people and dragons can't coexist and it was like there's gonna be a fight for dominance immediately between, between these two. So that was just the, the path I took. But a lot of it was how do I set this up where it's exciting, it's great storytelling, but at the same time, I'm not getting too far out in front of myself in terms of making something so grand. It really is undefeatable. And then how is their tension and conflict and parity between, between groups. Now, it's not to say some have advantages in some areas, in other groups, in different areas, but how do they play their best game? But if one is too strong, then, then it's over quickly, right? If you've got a F 15 fighter jet or F 16, flying around the calvary probably doesn't stand too much of a chance. It was putting all those things together. And then also with magic, I wanted to have powerful magic, but also done in a way that spell casters are still vulnerable. They still can be in danger. And depending on the circumstances, you know, whether someone is, if it's a showdown like an an old West Showdown where you've got a wizard and somebody with a bow, can that wizard get that spell off quick enough? Is it gonna hit the. I, Versus somebody who's got the bow. So things like that was just, there's just a lot of layers and parity with it. So a lot of it was just how does this all coalesce? And then ultimately, how do I inject these things in? In a character driven, drama driven, I mean, for me, Worldbuilding was, Do you feel like you're riding along? Right, If there's, if there's a cavalry charge or people bracing against a charge or just just some real heartfelt moments, do you feel like you're there with the characters? So yeah, most definitely. Well, do you feel like you're riding along? I'll admit to geeking out during his description of his worldbuilding methodology. It feels like a coalescing or crystallizing of a bunch of ideas that we've been developing in the WorldCraft Club. Andrew had identified his first love, the fairy cake or core concept of his setting. And by asking questions from the perspective of an audience member or visitant. Had gently cultivated a setting that feels earthy and grounded while simultaneously expansive and elevating. This is the tension that exists between the two biggest drivers of solid worldbuilding immersion and wonder this is the bridge between Asking good questions. This notion of an iceberg, I found particularly compelling. The idea of a story being the tip that everyone sees, but the worldbuilding underneath is also there to be explored in the depths below for the brave and curious. Next. I wanted to explore a little bit more of what he was saying about balancing magic. And I think his answer here is fascinating, but I'll leave a lot of my. Self in here as i lay up this question Managing Magic and Fantastical Elements in Your Setting --- What you've done, and I like this is. , you seem to have basically gone, like, I'm introducing these fantastical elements in here, and some of the common tropes that you would find in a medieval setting, in a, in a fantasy setting like a castle, are going to have to be adapted to this. And not only that, but you're gonna have to look at the characters on the other end. It's like not only how do the countermeasures exist, but how can I put the people wielding the magic in a position where, Their skills are perhaps rare or they are difficult to wield or have li sufficient limitations that you can kind of like reasonably put that guy with the bow up against them and there's a chance, there's a chance of success, you know, even if, even if it's a slim one. So like, I gotta ask like, what, what breaks, uh, did you, did you put on your magic wielding characters to sort of, Sort of ease up on them a little bit. The term would be Nerf. How did you Nerf your magic users a little bit to make them more grounded? Well, I think you reference a lot of great things just in terms of magic or fantastical creatures of rarity. Proximity. Like, is this something that lives north of the wall or is it right next door? Right. That makes a difference. And then, and then also barriers to entry. So with, with the magical system, this isn't exactly explained like this in the book, but if you think of, you're gonna conjure the, the elements of the world and Right. And try to shape them in a certain way. So maybe the analog to that is electricity. If electricity is gonna flow through someone. That casting a spell is a dangerous proposition and you have to be very good in terms of channeling this flow. Now there's, there's scales of the types of spells or how broad or how intense it is, but that was kind of the, that was the big check, that nothing, nothing is taken for granted even if you're an extremely adept and competent spell caster. Like, then it becomes a little bit easy, but the average person is not going to say Abra cadabra and something's gonna happen. Right? It's kind of like whim Hoff, right? The iceman, like he does these extreme challenges. He'll be in a pair of shorts and running shoes and out, out, out in the ice somewhere, right? Or these, these really endurance challenges. Now you could copy everything that he's doing. Probably wouldn't have the same fortitude that he does because it's also what is his mindset, right? And to tap into these things. And so I want, So I don't explain it necessarily in that way, but I tried to show that there's a cost to magic and you've gotta be in a zen like state to cast or bad things could happen up, to, and including death. So I want to point out this helpful rubric for worldbuilding that Andrew has laid out. Rarity proximity. Barriers to entry. As he lays out his magic system. We know we don't want every man and their dog wielding powerful, magical abilities, but we do want them to exist within the setting. So he asked three questions to curtail the influence of magic, but still leave it as a mysterious and powerful force. When you're, worldbuilding ask those three questions. How rare is the thing. Is it nearby? And is there anything that would stop a person from mastering these arcane skills? I think this is a great place to start with anything in a setting where you want to curtail its influence a little bit. And sort of uh, nerf it a bit. But these sorts of questions as we answer them. Also lead to more questions and more of a fleshing out of the world. So i started to ask a little bit more deeply into the factions and institutions that help cultivate magic users and i got a great answer Answer. I like the, I like the risk element in there as well, and the idea that you're channeling something that is inherently dangerous and I can see definitely A competent magic user being. Extremely dangerous and capable. Um, but I can also see that it would be extremely difficult to get there. And there there could be elements, like I could see like the way you make it sound as well with, um, the mindset is it's almost like your personality could kind of get in the way of being a competent magic user. It seems like there needs to be a lot of, uh, sort of that, that sort of z. Qualities of, of patients or stoicism to, to, to get very good at it. So there almost needs to be like a, a, a personal disposition, uh, as, as well not to, you know, try to try to put your magic system in a box. I'm sure there, there's always exceptions, but like that, that to me is really, really interesting. Like, there'd be that question, do, do you have the temperament? Like get your head around this and different schools as well. The Right Questions --- I can imagine disagreeing. So like, I, I like this idea. You're asking of questions and you're, you're that, that style of developing the world you went for, Here's the thing I wanna do. And then you sort of started asking questions around it until the world sort of filled in the gaps. And I like this idea that your story is at the. Peak of the worldbuilding sort of iceberg and you're kind of trying to get everything to sort of filter up into that space. It's almost like the roots of a tree drawing all the water in and up and like wanting your, wanting your audience to like always be experiencing, you know, parts of your world, even if they don't have full clarity. I like this idea, you know, feeling like people are in amongst the cavalry charge and being, kind of enmeshed in that, how. what, what sort of detail and fleshing out do you tend to throw in? Because I feel, I, I sense from you that you like to leave some things open-ended in order to leave the audience, that, that sort of flexibility. But you're also going to have to give them like enough that they can sort of. Draw the trend line, you know what I mean? can you give me, some examples if you like, of ways that you teased the broader setting? I guess just another general worldbuilding tip to lead into this is, is, is one to be open to your own questions and kind of explore from different angles. But I was talking to someone who had really no grasp of the medieval fantasy genre. Just, just wasn't his thing. And he said, Well, if there, if there are wizards. I said, Yeah, there, there're wizards. He said, If I had wizards, I would wanna make sure that my wizards had as many kids as possible, cuz then I would have more wizards. He goes, Do you have something like, And I said, Well, no, you know, I hadn't, I hadn't thought of that piece of the world as of yet. Um, and I thought, Well, would this be in Ardalencor? And I thought, it's a good question because it, it leads to other ones. One, is there some kind of hereditary trait that would lead you to be a spellcaster? that's an important worldbuilding question, which I hadn't initially contemplated. There's. An infinite number of questions that, that you don't contemplate along the way. So just being open to that was, was good for me. I thought, well, one, is there a hereditary piece of this? And then two, if someone had kids, like you had said before, do you have the singular purpose and focus knowing how dangerous magic is? Like how did those two things compete? Like just taking care of your family, raising your family, and focus on this. And they're not mutually exclusive. And I actually say this because it gets, it gets into just kind of what is the life of a wizard and what kind of path do they choose. So having children and, and. Being a, an astute caster of magic aren't in and of themselves mutually exclusive. But part of this is, there's a, what's called the ze vanian order. So the order is like the preeminent magic magical group, right? They kind of have a monopoly, not entirely, but in Ardalencor. They, they kind of run the show when it comes to magic, but there's always exceptions and, you know, tension at the margins. But part of it is if, if they're gonna teach. Magic. And it's something where you don't, you don't show up as like in a midlife crisis and say, Hey, I wanna, I wanna learn this thing. But part of it's, how willing are you? So there's a lot of training, preparation, discipline. Are you committed to this group because family is also you. You may pick your family over. The order at some point, right? So it, that, just that simple question led to a lot of additional searching and creation of the world and tied in, like a lot of this is, here's the big iceberg of worldbuilding, but then it feeds into characters. So there, there is some tension there. Well, what if somebody has a kid? Right? What happens or what if there's children between two of the members of the. happened? You know, so that formed some of the backdrop and context to, to the story as well. So I just, what she said was like, Yeah, I was following as I was talking and you, you were just riffing on it was like, Yeah, that was the same train of thought that I took about what, what is your focus and, and how does that manifest in terms of we're gonna teach you this, so your loyalty needs to be, , but then also it, it's not a hereditary thing. So you know, that was also an important piece for me too of Okay. That just helps us me understand how the world is constructed. And it's at least accessible in general, but there's huge barriers to entry. But part of it is you could find somebody who maybe displays some inclinations and train them, and it's not just restricted to particular families or groups as well. So all of that was. GR for the mill and thinking of, you know, different back stories for, for people and, um, how they interact and just different tensions within, within the group. So here, Andrew has answered an important question in his setting and has created depth by talking with someone who had no interest in the genre and was just sort of ad libbing on what they thought might be important within that setting. I mean, it's a pretty solid question. Why not try to make more wizards. It led Andrew down some unexpected paths and caused him to further develop and refine one of his key factions. I'd say that the outcomes there make total sense. This is how a Wizarding institution would form itself. Given the magical system that's been established and its constraints. We then continued our dive into this faction and talked more about the implications of his magic system I really, I really, really like that cuz there are, there are so many possibilities with that cuz the question always that you want to ask is like, if everyone's capable of magic, why isn't everyone doing it? You know, it's like, if if everyone could fly, why wouldn't you just fly? And the idea that you, that the training is, is so rigorous and involved and so, and requires such attention and focus that. You'd almost be essentially saying, Hey, you know, you, you really don't get to have a family I can kind of see how, an organization may wish to adopt similar sorts of constraints in order to, to maximize the potential of their students and to kind of go like, Look, you really need to. , your attention needs to be here. And having a family would be tricky. But then somebody could have, like, you know, they could have, a child they're not aware of. , there's the element of stoicism with it, but there also is, you know, people may sneak out from time to time. And it's kind of the duality of they shouldn't be doing it, but they're also testing other skills, like, can they do things discreetly? That's, that's also a valuable skill to the order as well. Now, if there's consequences to that or significant consequences, well then that may lead to certain repercussions for the, for the member as well. But I tried to think of they're, they're people too. Right? And there's going to be tensions and desires and how does that manifest? And then how does the group deal with it? I as well. So there's a little bit of gray with, with all of these things. And, and that's the, that's some of the subtext and layering with each of these different groups and hierarchical orders and this kind of balance or tension between groups and there's, they. They, they snipe or take shots at each other just in verbally speaking or in different ways. It's not kind of absolutes with within each of the groups. So that, that was interesting to, to explore.. So as we begin to draw to a close here in, uh, breaking from our normal process, I'm actually going to let our guests sum up our key takeaways, because I think he Better than i will Key Takeaways --- , I think the biggest thing is you don't have to start with a blank slate. Yeah, can, you can use some analog if you need to and just riff off of that, right? I think, I think part of the fun is making your own world, but don't feel like you have to start with a blank slate. Being willing to ask questions and look at things from different angles, like, Well, if this side was trying to win, how would they do it? And if this side was trying to win, how would they do it? Um, and, and then just focusing on where are the, where are the focus areas of your story, if it's a military confrontation or if it's courtly, intrigued in etiquette. Just really trying to hone in on those areas and think about those counterfactuals and what if the opposite was true? Why is this true? And just being open to that discovery process. I think that's really the, the greatest part of world. Final Word --- I think Andrew summed that up really well. Don't be afraid to work with what, you know, if history is your things, start there. Your court concept doesn't need to be original. Then color that setting with questions and work on creating the deeper parts of that iceberg. Oh and don't forget to look andrew Up. So the book In Times of War, A Tale of Ardalencor is available on Amazon. Uh, you can also check out free chapters at ardalencore.com or come by Instagram at Ardalencor and uh, quotes videos, and just check it out there as well. So that's it for today. We hope you enjoyed that episode of the WorldCraft Club podcast. Be sure to check out The Worldbuilder's Journal. If you haven't already, it's an innovative tool that we've created to help you practice the stuff you've learned in this podcast. Oh, and don't forget about the discourse Uh, rich community, that's there to help you practice and hone your worldbuilding skills. Links to all this are available in the link tree in the show notes. Until next time I'm James and you've been listening to the WorldCraft Club podcast. See you next time