57 - A World Fit for Wandering

A World Fit for Wandering === James - Interjection: You think worldbuilding is hard. Try doing it. When your characters have minds of their own. Let's talk about how to turn some of your biggest worldbuilding challenges into your biggest wins Hello, and welcome to the WorldCraft Club podcast. The show for writers, gamemasters and anyone else who wants to build immersive settings that will draw their audiences back time and time again. I'm your host, James. And today we're going to be discussing something specific. Sandbox settings in tabletop role-playing games. They present some unique challenges for Worldbuilder's due to their combination of flexibility and a lot of needed robustness so we brought in some big guns to help us Greg Worldbuilding.io: well, hello, I'm, uh, uh, Greg. Uh, I run, worldbuilding dot io. the website, it's a website about, building worlds, for, tabletop role playing games. it's d and d five E compatible. Most normal, common, TTRPG should find their way there. James - Interjection: So Greg and I met on Twitter. His username over there is world building.io, and you should definitely check him out. And he posts tons of cool stuff. But he posted a poll asking whether his followers preferred a railroad to a sandbox. This caught my attention I have some strong feelings about it. And I was curious about where the question was coming from. So I asked him and we got into a discussion and here we are now. Now. These two terms are frequently found in TTRPG that's tabletop role-playing games. They referenced two ways of telling a story within the game. And while this episode will be very useful for TTRPG players and game masters. Greg has a ton of great tips. I think anyone who creates worlds can benefit from understanding the interactions between creating a world that feels expansive and grounded while also satisfying the human need to see resolution and meaning in their stories. Lastly, before we dive in, we had some audio issues with the recording and while most of it comes through, pretty clearly we did a lot of work to clean it up. You may still find it gets muddy here or there. So let's kick this thing off with Greg's definition of a sandbox and a railroad. Greg Worldbuilding.io: Uh, railroad, uh, has a start. So, um, I run a r I run a railroad, uh, not, uh, last year, um, they started in a place in my world, which is called Dwarven and Skylift, and they had to go to a place, uh, that is called the Dcap Village. it was, uh, uh, 24 hours, three, uh, three sessions of eight hours. Um, and they encounter stuff in between. Uh, and it all feels rather natural or I hope I can pull it off, but, you know, and every dungeon master knows that it's, it's a bunch of sequences and they're gonna play in 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. Um, what is a sandbox? , I had a village, which cause, which is called Zuki. Uh, it's uh, mixed between Las Vegas and uh, Rome. Uh, and they had to, they had to kill the emperor. And, uh, uh, I didn't know how they, how they would kill the emperor. So they came in, they had a bunch of gladiatorial fights, uh uh, and they found the emperor. Greg Worldbuilding.io: Kill him. Uh, um, but I, I had no idea how this was gonna happen. I, he had a few weak points. His, uh, um, party happy daughter was, uh, was there, uh, and he had this degenerate brother, which, uh, uh, run around in the world. So there were cracks in his armor that I could push forward, but I would not, I didn't know which, crack they would take, or how they would use it to actually get to him. Um, so that is, that is, that is a sandbox. So you put them literally in a sandbox, they toy around in it and you react to what they do. That is, that is the, the difference in between. When it comes to writing, if you're an author of a book, a book author, uh, they call it discovery writing and, uh, outline writing. So they, they, they, they start to write and they see how the story progresses. That is a sandbox, that is the, of the sandbox and an outline. He already knows how it's gonna end. So he needs to fill in the blanks and down. The interesting part is that, uh, the community, uh, starting, uh, dms thing, that sandbox is the end. This is the way to go. It's, it's, uh, more complicated. It's, um, and they, they look down on railroading, uh, because it forces your players. It takes agency. And, and the ultimate challenge of a dungeon master, uh, is. It's actually to give them agency to, to provide them with a world that they can toy in. Um, but you rightfully Sato, and my players told me also that yes, it's true, but don't forget that railroading is actually not that bad as it's as it's turned out to be. And maybe we should re-appreciate, uh, railroading. James - Interjection: So, this is where our disagreement on Twitter actually took shape. On the one hand you have a railroad. This takes your players on a journey from one end of a plot to another scene by scene. It's frequently criticized for being too restrictive, not allowing players enough choice or agency. On the other hand, you have a sandbox, a theoretically open world where players are given free reign to make their own choices and live with the consequences. Essentially my contention was that sometimes a sandbox can be so open that it actually winds up restricting the players because they don't know how to grab onto the story that you're trying to present to them. And players or readers really need that story in order to find their place in that world and interact with it. What I found fascinating here as well was the way Greg likened the sandbox railroad dichotomy to this idea of discovery writers. We tend to call them pantsers because they fly by the seat of their pants and outline writers or plotters who write everything down they know exactly where their story is going down to some fine detail before they even put pen to paper The truth is though, is that you kind of want a little bit of both that grounded reality of a setting that is thoroughly planned and well considered while also providing flexibility for people to kind of explore that setting and experience wonder this is doubly true in performance art. Like TTRPG where you've got your players would their own decisions. They feel like they want to make their own choices in it and not. Feel like they're being led by the bit through a story, but at the same time, they also need a good story to sink their teeth into. This can be a complicated needle to thread and I think Greg does a great job through this kind of explaining how to have your cake and eat it too. Greg Worldbuilding.io: It's, it's, it's, the tricky part is you, you got the iceberg iceberg theory, and I think a, a lot of, um, your listeners do too. It means that, uh, the top of the iceberg that you see, uh, uh, is, is like supported by an, an enormous amount of ice underwater. Uh, uh, so, um, We have that too. So imagine, uh, a, a girl that works in a bar. Um, you need to give her something that is interesting. Uh, uh, so, uh, she's the top of the iceberg, uh, the scar on her cheeks. She has, she's a pretty girl with a, with a very nasty scar on her right cheek. Uh, the trick is, uh, we don't know what supports the scar on our. Unless one of the players notices and is interested because, uh, uh, they, they wander, they wander away. So it's, it's, um, uh, uh, We, we actually support , what they're interested in. Uh, we don't write in the hope that they are interested. And that is, that is challenging. Um, and if, if, if it's the end of the session, uh, um, And then they say, um, well, you shouldn't tell this to your players, but it's, it's a common trick. So, uh, there's a mystery and, uh, you kind of know how it sits because that is what you do. Um, uh, and then one of the players has a theory, which is completely wild, uh, uh, and, and of the charts. Uh, and if, if you have a few hours to actually think about it, you can actually change it. To that being true because for two reasons, uh, uh, dating their rights, they're, they're, they're, they're incredibly happy with fact, their rights, they're cleverly interested because this is the way they're gonna go with this. Dungeon actually, um, Tries to build what is interesting to your players. So if, if you can figure out what is interesting to them, you actually want to give it to them. Uh, and it's not necessarily what you, what you thought of. And that is only possible, uh, in, uh, a sandbox environment because the railroads, uh, uh, for example, the travel from the lift to, uh, that capital village, it's, it's a bunch of sequences. And, and they'll go to the sequences So if there's a mystery, your players come up with a solution and the solution is actually wrong, but it's an interesting, it could be an interesting story then, uh, we, uh, we make that, we make the solution, the players come up with true and we carry on from there cause they're happy that it's true and, uh, their interest that's interested in their solution because they made the solution. But this can only be done in sandbox. Uh, cause the railroad doesn't have room, uh, uh, to do this, to go, uh, it's, it's 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. So it'll be 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. There's no, no way around it. James - Interjection: I think a good way to describe what Greg is doing here is adaptive sandbox. He's using iceberg theory. So the players only see what's on top and they don't know what's underneath. And a way you could almost say it's like Schrodinger's iceberg, there's only one way to know what's underneath and that's to have a look. Until you do. The question is in doubt for your players. This gives Greg a ton of flexibility in his planning and also lets him make use of his players. Good ideas about his setting because more often than not, their ideas are better than yours. I followed up asking him a little about his process James: Your process, um, and correct me if I'm wrong here, is to, is to sort. keep an eye on what your players are interested in and allow the setting to adapt. I feel like that's very, that's note heavy. Do you find That's very note heavy, note-taking. Heavy. Greg Worldbuilding.io: Yes. Well, actually it's, uh, um, I write, uh, uh, so I print out my, uh, my world when I, when I play, uh, with my players And then I have a blue pencil and the blue pencil says hook. It's all right. Uh, uh, hook. Um, and if I remember it, by next month, we play once a month. We play long sessions, so like eight hours, but once a month, uh, if I remember it, uh, in, when my, during my prep time over the next month, it was a good enough hook to actually. Stake and then, uh, I go along with it. Uh, it can even become the, I had, I had a sandbox, uh, with my new crew. So I had, I had a new bunch of players. I didn't know what they were gonna, uh, do. So it's the beginning of this five year campaign actually. Um, I didn't know if they were gonna be good or evil or, or whatever. So, um, they, they start, they started working for, uh, the mafia, uh, of the town. So the, the, the, and so, okay. Fair. Fairly, fairly bad. And one of the things that they had to do was, uh, they had to pay the, uh, working girls. And one of the working girls was, uh, um, uh, was trying to quit the job and the guys, uh, had to pay them and had to convince the girl to keep on working. And they, uh, I, I thought it would be interesting because it would give me, uh, a level of how far they would go evil. Um, and they decided not, uh, uh, uh, they said, well, yeah, if you wanna stop, uh, working, it's okay. . So they skipped over my hook. Uh, but it, it became a really big hook because, uh, the girl got married, uh, the mafia, uh, came down on them because they said, James: You, you didn't Greg Worldbuilding.io: we gave you one job, James: didn't do your thing. Didn't do the thing. So, so they had a, they had a, they had a, a a little bit of good in them. Like, like Greg Worldbuilding.io: Yeah, it's like, uh, uh, no. And then, and then we, it, it became a big thing because, uh, they had to compensate for the losses. Uh, uh, we had a, um, an actual, uh, um, uh, bridal feast that I put in English. Uh, uh, so they got married, they went there. They, they had to pick clothes and So, on and so on. And then I had the whole, uh, um, I had the whole city guards around, uh, the marriage. So that, uh, uh, so that. The party, uh, could well, uh, try to escape. Um, and it's, uh, it was a big ending. out of a small hook they didn't take. Uh, yeah. So that is, that is what you do. You, you, that is the sandbox, uh, route, James: I love that. Greg Worldbuilding.io: Yeah, thanks. Uh, um, they, they loved it too. Uh, it was, uh, it was, it was, it came together very, very nicely. Um, and, uh, and they were actually getting caught by the city guards for a murder they didn't want to commit. They had to extort, they had to extort a few coins, uh, uh, from the local people, uh, again, uh, me measuring how evil they would get. And he accidentally killed the guy. . James: naturally Greg Worldbuilding.io: Sorry. James: to the best of us, doesn't it? , whoops. Riff on Character Arcs --- Greg Worldbuilding.io: it's, it's also as a, as a dungeon master, it's, um, it's a lot more rewarding. It's, it takes, uh, um, it takes guts because, uh, you rely on improvisation and you rely on your experience as a dungeon master. Um, so for beginning dms, it's, it's really, really scary. Um, but it's, it's very rewarding. Uh, uh, um, and it's also, um, We have, we have, uh, um, a, uh, uh, non-playing characters, the pro protagonists, um, uh, antagonists. And, uh, uh, we, uh, um, we craft them. And one of the big problems is that you put a lot of time and effort in it. Uh, uh, you might even get them drawn and stuff. And the players, well, they recognize it as an important figure because he's the major mayor or, or whatever, but they're, they're not engaging, really engaging. Uh, uh, there's a few tricks, but you can only pull them off a few times. But the girl that is working in the bar for some reason that I mentioned it today, which has nothing to do except being like furniture and their, like, being a realistic bar they fall in love with her and they, and they, and they, they they want even to take her, uh, on an adventure or one of the guys starts a relationship with her or, I dunno what the, the trick is. Um, It's, uh, um, I'm a, I write software and there's, there's a, um, a principle, um, that we try to, uh, loosely couple facts. Uh, and, uh, one of the things that you loosely couple is you have a message. Uh, for example, you need the keys, uh, to, uh, the vault. Uh, and so some NPC has the keys to the vault and has, has, uh, but it can be the mayor cause he's an important guy. And of course he has the keys to the vault, and that is, Normally would expect them to, to find the key, but if there's so much more interesting, the girl behind the bar for some reason with the ugly scar, uh, um, She has the key and, and then just figure out that her brother works there or is the night janitor. I, I don't care. Something that is plausible, but, uh, uh, they, they're with the character that that's day first. I don't know what reason love, but the love is there and the interest is there and you move on. But it's, it's something you gotta let go and, and run with sometimes. That's, yeah. That's um, James: You're, You're, a hundred percent right. Greg Worldbuilding.io: It's, yeah, It's, and there's, and there's a railroad there because, uh, uh, the endpoint is the bank and they need the key. So you can argue that the key and, and, and coming to the bank is, is, is the railroad. Um, only the, the, it's a really broad railroad. It's, uh, uh, uh, where you can actually, James - Interjection: Did you catch that? This is fascinating and has close parallels with writing and the idea of cultivation that Seth and I have become briefly absorbed in. You see, in this instance, you have players who are improvising characters on the fly as they go. They're making decisions about the priorities, their characters would have, what they're interested in and what they want to pursue. Note how Greg makes a special effort to include their preferences in his game. The world adapts and molds to essentially fit his visitant evolving interests. This is not dissimilar from a writer who finds himself surprised at what their characters are up to. If the world is a garden, there's a sense that we, as Worldbuilder's may cultivate that garden might cut down. Parts of it might favor some parts of it. Might graft trim, cut, prune, replant. But at the end of the day, we have no power to make it grow. This is what we mean by a world taking on a life of its own that's closely tied to your visitant experience in the end. What Greg has created is a world that meets really two chief criteria of worldbuilding. In one sense. It's a world that seems filled with stories. Wherever the players go, something meaningful is happening that they can interact with. But on the other hand, the world doesn't present this information to them too. Clearly they must explore to dig deeper and find that they've got to look underneath the iceberg to see what's going on in the rest of the story. It's easy to see how his players would get swept up in a place like that. James: one thing I think, uh, we, you, you talked about a little bit as well, is I, I'm kind of curious, um, how, how you make that. good soil for your setting. You know, what, what are, what are the tools that you use to build your setting initially that suit this sort of sandbox cultivation? Greg Worldbuilding.io: it depends on your players. Um, James: That is the best answer. ? Greg Worldbuilding.io: Yeah. I, I got a, I got a fight Happy crew. Uh, well, most of them are fight happy. When they came to Zuki, there's a reason why. , it has yet two huge arenas and a racetrack. And, and it's a bunch of things. They will go and have a look at if they if they see an arena on a map, and I guarantee you 100%, um, they gotta. . They, they're, it's, there's no way they're gonna, so I, I gave them an arena, uh, and then they had bars, so I made it into, uh, less Rome, more Las Vegas. So I put bars around it because they like bars and they like, they like messing things up in bars and getting drunk. So that is, that is what you build. Then you need a story that weaves through this. Uh, so that was killing the emperor. Uh, uh, and then the weak points in the armor I already discussed, so that there's, there is more to it than just going to the arena fighting and, and running constitution things to see if you get poisoned by, uh, the liquor. But Yeah, but that is, that is, that is and, and there's. The longer players play, uh, they shy away from combat. Um, and they make sillier more complex characters and they go into political games and, and they will talk to, uh, the talk to the city watch or, or the commander of the city watch and so on. They, they know the tricks and it's not interesting anymore to kick kick the city watches, uh, behind It's, um, So, yeah, that it's, that is, that is you cater to your players much as, as, uh, the writers of your show will cater to their audience and so on and so on. Um, uh, and we got a very small audience normally, so we got, we got like mine is five, so, so it's, uh, I cater to those five. James: , so you, you build the world in a way that caters to your, to your players and, um, you want to kind of lay. As, as you're, as you're manufacturing that setting, you're thinking about what, what they might want to do. Greg Worldbuilding.io: How do you make it feel, uh, real is like, react, uh, to what they do. So, uh, if they kill the city, guard there will be an investigation. If the investigation proves that. They did it, , yeah, they're gonna have problems. Uh, um, it fixes two things. It fixes murder, robots, um, and, uh, yeah, if, if they go around kill stuff, you got a bunch of hooks up because a lot of the, yeah, you just slay my world. Yeah. So then, then, then, Let the big bad brothers show up and the guy is in mercenary and he came back from, uh, uh, killing a bunch of evens somewhere and he's, he's battle hard and, and he's gonna come for you and hook and once they know that my players literally tell this, uh, uh, they, they killed, uh, um, they killed the girl that worked at the mayor's office and they said, this is gonna come back to us It's not a monster. It's, it's a, it's, it's an actual crime. And they know that. If they kill one of my MPCs, the world will react. Um, and, and it feels real because they got agency, uh, um, if they do something, the world's react. And that is what, what they feel as, as, as being real. Um, and it's, it's a, it's a very satisfying hook. And, and they will engage with it because they like that. It feels real. They, they like the consequences. Uh, um, they like being scared. It's, uh, or, or being threatened. James - Interjection: So, this is a neat well to draw from, because this is a consistent problem that players and DMS have with each other. A player makes a decision, a bad decision. Believe it or not, it's very common. Then the DM doles out consequences. You murder somebody. The city guard is after you. Sometimes DMS get a little punitive with this. They feel like their players are trying to break their world by straining the rules that the DM has laid out. And I think we can all empathize with their frustration because they want the world to feel real immersive and lived in and hear the players jacking it up. But they forget that their players are coming there for a story, not a simulation. In real life. If I commit a crime, I go to jail. The story is more or less over unless we pivot to a prison drama or some other different medium. What Greg does here that I love is he takes players, bad decisions and transmutes them into a story. He seeing opportunity where other DMs see only frustration and inconvenience. This last segment here really caps off a lot of what we've been learning from Greg. Greg Worldbuilding.io: there's a, um, there's three things to worldbuilding. Um, it's a concept of confirm others. There's the plane, um, on that plane you put people and there's a conflict in between the people you put on the plate. Um, uh, and that is, and, and I did everything wrong in the 20 years that I'm, Yeah, I, I, I built this really, really pretty world with dwarves and, and snow, and everybody was kind and honorable and, and, and it was boring because, There was, there was no conflict. James - Interjection: There's just a ton to work with here. It seems that Greg, in his experience as a GM has gotten great at creating adaptive settings that suit the desires of his players. He has a few key ideas that I think we can take away from this though. One know your audience Greg's familiarity with his audience, helped him to know what artifacts to place in his setting that would draw his visitant in. He uses the example of an arena. If you have players who, you know, are going to be excited about fighting. Put an item in the setting that will draw some fun out of them. Two. Don't kill your darlings. Adapt them. You're going to have great ideas, characters you've fleshed out completely plot hooks or points that were precious and exciting to you that you'll just have to lay aside for the sake of creating an experience for your visitant. Another way to think about it is I modify that old Axiom of kill your darlings with adapt your darlings. Like in the example of the mayor, having the key to the vault. He might not have it, but the girl at the bar who the players are interested in, might it allows you to retain your plot point while funneling your setting through the interests of your visitant. Three. Remember that your world is founded in its conflicts. Every conflict that exists in your setting provides an opportunity to engross your audience. In this instance, the audience or creating some of those conflicts, but having the humility to reframe those challenges as a chance to make your world even deeper will yield serious dividends. So that about does it for our key takeaways. Definitely go and find Greg on Twitter or on a site worldbuilding.io. There'll be a link for that in the show notes, to find more of his sweet insights and products. If you find yourself with some time, please give us a glowing review on your favorite podcasting app. Or if we don't quite merit a glowing review. Go ahead and drop us an email on our link tree in the show notes. We'd love to hear from you. And finally, if you really want to give us a piece of your mind, why not join our discord server? This is where a lot of the work and practice of the club takes place. And we'd love to have you participate in our little community. If you're a listener to the podcast, we already like you. So that about does it for today with the WorldCraft Club podcast for Greg. I'm your host, James and I'm overjoyed. You listened today. And he accidentally killed the guy. . James: naturally Greg Worldbuilding.io: Sorry. James: to the best of us, doesn't it? , whoops.