61 - Star Wars: Andor Roundtable

B01_12 - Andor Roundtable === James - Interjection: Andor made a scene. It was one of the few Disney plus star wars offerings that actually gained viewers after its first episode. Let's talk about why it's so great. Welcome to the WorldCraft Club. A podcast and community devoted to helping you make rich, immersive worlds that will bring your audience back time and time again. I'm your host James. And today we have another round table discussion. A time where we bring members of our discord community on to discuss a worldbuilding topic or IP. We are going to spoil the crap out of this thing. So consider yourself forewarned. This episode is just a little longer than normal, so I won't keep you too long. Winding up. Let's just dive right in with our guests today. I asked each of them to name themselves and then tell me what their first experience with Star Wars was. Cast Introductions --- AJ: Hey, my name's aj. , my first experience with Star Wars was watching the Return of the Jedi with one of my best friends. I started with the third one in the original trilogy. Dave: I'm Dave. I think my first experience with Star Wars, I'd be interested to know if my siblings recall it the same way, was like seeing like an ad for something on a cereal box and being like, these are really cool spaceships. And my parents were like, yeah, we have those on, a box set of VHS's. So, that was my original experience was, the theatrical release of the original trilogy. Marcos: Hey, I'm Marcus. And very similarly, through my parents is where I got first exposed to. They had the VHSs. My mom is a big Star Wars fan, and even though I might have been too young at the time, to really recollect all the like tropes and iconography stuck in there. And I recognize Star Wars for just being Star Wars Steph: hi. I am Steph. I grew up mostly in a Star Trek house, so don't tell anyone. , my first like real memory of Star Wars was actually riding the ride at Disney. I think. , we definitely, I definitely had seen Star Wars before then, but that's the first real memory I have of riding in the, , the ride. James: , I think most of us when we think of that, we're thinking of the new Star Wars experience sort of thing in Disney World, but you Steph: No, I was like 12. So it would've been, before they even added, like, that was before the prequels cuz the prequels came out when I was in my teens, um, James: you say Steph: pre, pre prequel. Yeah. So that's, that's my first like real Star Wars memory that the ride, James: that's excellent. AJ: Star Tours Steph: that Star Tours? Yes. (The format for this discussion follows three basic questions: What helped get you immersed in the setting, where was the worldbuilding good, the second was when did the opposite occur, what pulled you out of the setting and a third question about how the IP is changing overall) James - Interjection: the format of this discussion follows three basic questions. What helps you get immersed in this setting? Where was the worldbuilding good. The second is the opposite. When did you get pulled out of the setting? And a third question about how the IP is changing overall. What's happening to star wars. Where is it going? First Question --- Question 1: AJ --- James: So, AJ, what helped foster immersion and wonder in the setting, where was the worldbuilding good and you felt like you were in the world? AJ: Yeah, so I have, uh, three things written down here. Uh, , clothing, first and foremost. For me, I really, really enjoyed the, the pushback towards more of the, the older style, like seventies esque clothing that they, they had going on there, and I feel like that that really helped me, feel it, as well as the, like that this kind of rolls into the stark contrast between the two factions. So like all of the pristine costumes for every imperial that you James: Imperials had mad drip during this one. Like AJ: perfect. James: envious. AJ: The attitude disparity too, between that, everyone was like on task and, and doing their thing and trying to get the upper hand in the imperials and, the rebels or, or the people of Ferrix or, even from the flashbacks with Kunari. You can see that that kind of disparity the, the relishing in freedom, and kind of doing your own thing and, and the, the merc lifestyle of the, the rebels. Honestly for me, the tech as well, I know we talked about this a little bit some of what they, they pulled in for Ferrix and, and for some of the, the quote third world planets or, or whatnot. Um, where it was definitely, you could see it was lower tech stuff than in, again, those pristine areas of the, the Empire, so, Question #1: Dave --- Dave: Honestly, in a large part, I'd have to just agree with AJ on the costuming was, was really well done. One thing that like just caught my eye and kept like my attention, even though it was kind of a smaller. I guess, I mean, it was featured a lot, so I guess, but it was, it was never like, uh, a prominent part of the story was just Mon Mothma's speeder that she took around the city. I felt like it was a really good blend. Like I'm, I'm not a big prequel fan, but it's there and so you kind of have to deal with it. And so I actually, like, I really did think they did a great job of making the aesthetic look like we were in a transition period cuz like the prequels are in like space 1950s and the, uh, originals are in like space 1970s and eighties. So we got like this kind of sweet, muscle car inspired speeder and , it really worked for me. I really liked that speeder. , I know that's like a dumb detail, but , that's the kind of thing sometimes that just like will grab you. , so I, I thought that James: Club dumb details are our bread and butter. Dave: Yeah. Well, and like, you know, through the show, you got, you got the, you got to see the inside of the Senate again. And you also got to see, and obviously I'm assuming people that are listening to this are okay with spoilers, but at the very end you get to see the Death Star. So like there is, they did a really good job of, of the chronology. Like I, I, I did really enjoy that aspect of it. James: Yeah. The tying together, the way you're seeing sort of that space, 1950s to space, 1970s move. Yeah, I like that a lot. That's cool. All right, so, uh, Marcus, what helped foster immersion and wonder for you in the setting? Question #1: Marcos --- Marcos: Oh man. I was just enjoying the ride when I was watching episode to episode, but the one thing that kept like me kind of zoning out and just, Steph: zoning out. Marcos: zoning out, but kind of like focusing and just like taking a moment. The slow pacing allowed me to take in the scenery, and it was all the beautiful sets that made me fall in love with this show all on its own. Like, where you start out with, Andor, where he lives with like Bix and all the other workers and just everything is just red brick and everything is dirt roads. And even in the red brick houses, there's no uniform, no uniformity in any of the house's designs, but everything is so practical. Everything is so real, and the camera gets like so, zoomed in or so close to the characters that you can kind of like, okay, this is where they would cook this. There's the stove and everything. And then there's where they would recline, and in stark contrast as, uh, AJ mentioned the empire. Was all sterilized white steel and clean, geometric, patterns and everything. The, that war room that they, uh, that we see, um, I'm sorry, I'm gotta like remember everybody's names. Uh, Deidre Miro. Yeah. You know, was James: empire cia, essentially. Yeah. Marcos: Yeah. just kind of the dome, everything. It was said that, that dome kind of represented the Empire logo, the, that entire room, and even like the geometric shapes on the walls was like for like sound dampening, but it also helped you just kind of see how large that room was. and even, like, even in the same planet of Coruscant, we visit three different places in Coruscant that are completely different from each other. Coruscant we usually see it in the movies from a bird's eye view. Okay. All the speeding cars going around. Big , CGI shot and everything. James: vistas. Yeah. Marcos: Sir Karn the like, the soldier that gets kind of denounced and he has to get kicked back home with his mother as he's going to his mother on Coruscant, you know, walking down, you get to see below all the, hustle and bust. into this kind of quiet place underneath, kind of like the facade of Coruscant and things get more lonely as he goes down, until his like apartment where he lives with his mother. Again, I, I may not print be pronouncing this, but it was, Steph: but Marcos: when you see like the thing of his, the shot where he is in his room and you see outside of his window, Steph: outside Marcos: it's very, inspired by Nagen capsule Tower in Japan. Sadly, just recently demolished, but Steph: but Marcos: that tower in Japan was made for just like, okay. cut. costs, efficiency building on top of each other, room after room. You are not special. You are another cog that we put this module into to, , make room for and outside of his, Dave: And. Marcos: uh, window. Steph: window. Marcos: And after this window, out the window, you just see more of that. and then you go to, , Mothma's if I said her name correctly. Yeah. Mon Mathos. And she's in the high rise. She's a senator. and now you get like all these wonderful kind of like mix of, Asian and art deco geometric and like bonzai trees and shutters, in her place that is like deceptively detailed as it's been said. cuz it gives an open space, but there's just so much to look at. And then you go with Luthen's kind of front in his museum, you know, where it's concrete, but it's like brutalist style concrete because like some James: Tasteful concrete Marcos: Yeah. But the thing is, and I bring up each space also encapsulates the character that it belongs to because it is this front, you know, this museum, but this guy is a commander, you know, he's undercover. So this concrete is almost akin to the brick. You know, that we have, that we are the rebell, the origins of the rebellion that we finally get to, you know, as the show finally comes full circle. And I just loved James: for a guy that's willing to spend blood, which is interesting. Marcos: mm-hmm. . So yeah, the sets really brought me in. The sets really brought me in. I can watch it all over again and just drool over everything. James: yeah. Yeah, I like that. I also love the overshot of the speeder leaving on the different squares and different colors and in Marcos: Oh yeah, I James: that really kind of grabbed me. I thought that was interesting. But, um, alright. Question #1: Steph --- James: Steph, same question. What helped foster immersion and wonder in the setting for you? Steph: yeah. , definitely, definitely agree with the clothes and the sets. I think it's just how unapologetic the worldbuilding was. They dropped you in a place with no explanation and just kind of moved on. Right. Like, Cyril and his mother's apartment was just so fascinating, right? The booth in the middle with the table was just completely unique and, and interesting. Ferrix it kind of felt a little bit like Tattoine but it was clearly not right, because it was too, , dark and dingy and drab and red. They had the bells all around and they had the, the, the anvil tones that just, it was, that was just part of their culture. They didn't like talk about it. They didn't address it, they just did it and moved on. Marcos: job. You could Steph: oh yeah. No, it's a cool job. James: booted a stormtrooper off his building. That was the best part. It's like, Dave: Love that. AJ: Look, I'm at work. James: moment. He's like, I'm hitting a mallet. Like get off, get off, the tower. Sorry. Carry on Steph. Steph: no, it's fine. Um, AJ: part of the rebellion. Steph: they flash back to Ander's childhood, there's only children there. They never address it. They never explain it. The water prison, is its own like thing for me that I was just completely blown away by it because it makes so much sense how they were able to just keep people in line. It makes so much sense that they had to have built. Pieces for the Death Star somewhere. Prison labor, people going to jail for six years because suddenly the brutalist regime is starting to crack down. Um, but there were still aliens on that planet, right? They, they break out, they meet some locals and, and the locals look completely foreign. Star Wars is famous for its single biome worlds, but like every place you visit feels different. And I think that, Andor did that really well. Question #1: General --- James: Yeah. I love that. These are, these are great observations. I, I really love, it's getting me excited to like, actually watch it again. Uh, and I, I think you touched on this stuff, but the cultures were surprisingly distinctive. We even got a bit of Mon Mothma's culture. Why do we drink this drink? It's disgusting. Oh wow. That's why we drink it kind of thing. Like, and the uh, and the way that they allude to their sort of religious culture, historic religious culture and the way the youth are turning back to this sort of, I wanna say like kind of conservative, traditional sort of there there's been a youth response that's going like, back in that direction. She's just kinda like, oh, that's interesting. And, um, funnily enough, like the, the, the gambling addict dad's like, yeah, I'm cool with it. And she's like, I don't know about this. And it's just like, there, there were just like weird interactions like that. And I think Steph, your, your point is very well taken. It was a, it was confident. Like we, we talked a lot about confidence in worldbuilding with Edgerunners and how it just tossed you into the middle and just was like, here you go. I feel like there was a lot of that with, Andor especially the culture on Ferrix was actually very distinctive. And there were a couple of moments where they highlight this culture Steph: You get made into a brick. I thought that was the coolest freaking thing in the world. I, I was like, that is so neat. It is such a great way to remember someone, right? Like you, you, you literally become part of the city. James: and the road of mourning and the, and the music and all of that. And you can see where the tension builds because Ferrix was essentially, they're setting it up as the, as the instigation point, the red square, Tiananmen square, like, you know, or something like that of, of Star Wars where they're saying like, this is where the rebellion started in an unlikely place with unlikely and largely unwilling people who just got pushed too far. James - Interjection: Some key elements to draw out this far in the conversation. Star Wars has a long history and has changed its aesthetics over that time. Much of the commentary initially was on costumes, which bridged the prequels and the 1980s era original trilogy. Though it could be argued that the styles, date, those movies with the science fiction sensibilities of their era here, they're embraced and add to the sense of place. You can't really get this from properties that lack the long history Star Wars has. What's more, we established that and, or was confident in its expression of place. We discussed this a little bit during the Edgerunners round table from earlier. They trusted their audience to read between the lines of the setting as it developed. I think this is key in your own. Worldbuilding let your audience breathe a bit and explore the place. The anvil clock tower is a great example of this. It's never fully explained, but long shots of it are included and you can infer some of its purpose. Finally. Locations in this played an explanatory role and served as accessories to the plot . Sometimes to serve in demonstrating the contrasting ideals of rough shod rebels and pristine imperials other times to specifically comment on a character's role purpose or personality with Luthen's brutal concrete exterior it perfectly captures his role as a high society antiquities dealer while highlighting the brutal blood spending rebel commander beneath. Our next question was the inverse of the first. What elements of the worldbuilding in the show drew you out of the setting or story Question #2: AJ --- AJ: what really pulled me out of it, was the lack of alien life forms in that, specifically in the prison. I understand you can have that idea of. Steph: like AJ: Having, humans spread across the galaxy. And so like, they're the most prevalent. Like they do that in, in fantasy all the time. That's fine. But I don't remember seeing almost a single one in that prison. Like they're all humans and it's weird. And that's not cool because they still have them in other places. Steph: They do have a scene where they are sorting people into prisons, so it's possible that they're sorted by lifespan or capability or something like that. But it is a really good point that it was just humans somehow. Dave: You don't accidentally get like a electricity proof species on your electricity base Marcos: Yeah. James: that's a good point. That's a good AJ: off, Steph: The floors are calibrated to humans, right? Like the, the, the shock level would have to be calibrated. James: But, but Dave: these are the things, these are the things that show up in like novels and comic books 10 years later. And then all the fans are like, no, it all makes perfect sense. It's all right here. James: it's, it's, this is a hundred percent true. This is how this stuff gets developed. And, and it's, it's the fact in some ways, like this is the excitement of doing worldbuilding stuff, right? Is that you sort of like, if you, if you, if you're predisposed to like the top, the thing, you kind of go, well, they probably sorted them by race. You know what I mean? Like, you don't just go, this is bull crap. This show sucked. They didn't even put any effort in it. You're just kinda like, nah, there's, there's Marcos: Yeah, I think, James: like, we can do this , we can Marcos: said, Steph, .I like think how you, how you said Steph, that this was, the worldbuilding is very unapologetic and you just have, the audience just has to think, figure stuff out and stuff is made to be conversed with afterward and James: It's fun to chew the fat. Marcos: yeah. And that's, I think that's what they were going for. So it's, it's like why is there all these humans? It it, it's kind of like the thing from if of like, iRobot with Will Smith. It's like why are the prison all full of humans? That is the correct question. Why is that And then they disappear and you're just left to discuss James: Yeah. Dave: We're pinning down. You have to say something negative about Andor now question. Question #2: Marcos --- James: You have to do it, Marcus. You have to do it. All right. Let's, let's do this. Mark, as you poked your head above the parapet, say something mean about Andor Marcos: say something mean about Andor. Okay. James: doesn't just worldbuilding. What do AJ: a funny nose, Marcos: Okay. So the thing was, what took me out of this like Star Wars experience James: Yeah. Marcos: The pacing was very different than what we're used to in any other Star Wars media. the tone was different. It was much more darker, much more boots on the ground kind of deal. AJ: yeah. Marcos: and even the, like, when I think about it, when I think about like a Star Wars like feel and, setting, I'm thinking of the Star Wars, transitions, like the big wipe, and it's like, Steph: it's Marcos: and then you're in another setting, you know? Uh, that's like every other thing. James: eating a fly Steph: other Marcos: Yeah. And. AJ: Yeah. Marcos: That was absent from this, which kind of made me James: the pulp? Marcos: Yeah. It made me forget it was a Star Wars, media, like a Star Wars story. The thing is though, I loved it. Steph: The thing is though, I Marcos: I loved experiencing Star Wars in a brand new light and it was just so refreshing. It was so refreshing. Like, honestly, I'm, I, I am I, if I haven't said this before, Steph: I haven't said this before, Marcos: I loved half of, Rogue One, and that is the first half. And the first half feels like the entirety of Andor, the second half of Rogue One. What turned into Star Wars, and then you had big old space battles and all these characters that I wanted to know more about were then just frantically fighting in a battlefield And then dying, you know? And I'm like, Steph: died. Marcos: yeah. And I'm like, but you are like, uh, so anyways, Steph: the, it doesn't feel like Star Wars critique, I think is fair. And I don't, I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. I guess if you're signing up specifically for a Star Wars thing, then Dave: it's one of your favorite ips and you like it how it is. Steph: Which is a great way to segue into Dave. Question #2: Dave --- Dave: Star Wars, is a series of movies and live action television shows. Everything else is optional and most of it I dislike. I mean there's, there's been a lot of great Star Wars content, but , honestly, part of the reason I don't like, the Extended Universe or I'm not a huge fan of it, it depends book to book, but a lot of it leans into harder sci-fi, which is not what I'm coming to Star Wars for. I'm, I like the swashbuckling, I like this space based swashbuckling. But , to address what issues actually more than just my critiques on tone and stuff, like what worldbuilding aspects I felt Drew drew me out of the, the, the show. A lot of it was just some odd like set design and prop choices. Like when they first meet the, the group that's gonna pull the heist on the, Scotland planet, James: It is Scotland. That's amazing. Scotland Planet. Yeah. Steph: looked like Scotland a lot. James: Does look Dave: was a lot of islands. It was a lot of sheep felt like Scotland. Yeah, but , the rebels there had AK 47s and it was weird. Like they were, they were literally , they were, they were spray painted with like a gloss black. And so they were a little Star Warsifide, but they were AKs and it AJ: No, they weren't I mentioned it the minute I saw them. Like I wonder if those are, slug throwers. cause I didn't want to say 'just guns' Dave: so additionally, Carn goes back home after being fired, and he is living with his mom again, and she pours him a bowl of crunch berries like that was James: That was Steph: so weird Question #2: Steph --- Steph: My two minutes of, of what worldbuilding I didn't like and this, this is gonna be stupid and pithy, but I don't like it when they kill off characters that I like. That's always frustrating to me. The entire crew from Alani just, just dies. One at a time. Dave: Oh, you knew this was gonna Steph: the guy, the guy at the end who was just like, let's steal the money and run away. And Andrew's like, nah, ding. And, and he was gone. Right? Like it, but, but AJ: too. I love how he just makes snap decisions and kills people. James: well, I, I was Steph: That is very Unstar wars. That is very Unstar wars. His just abso like, what the very first episode Marcos: I was about to say Han Solo much, James: Yeah. Still Marcos: me, not Star Wars. James: Wars. Steph: Oh Marcos: Let's make a deal, you and I. Okay. Steph: Okay. James: Actually, that's exactly Star Wars. It's, Marcos: Oh yeah, James: no, no, no, Marcos: It was a different tone and it didn't have Harrison Ford, but James: that was to establish, that was to establish Harrison Ford as a character who was a rogue and was doing under the table dealings and like, but with this one, there was a coldness and a rapid calculus to it, because as well, his plan was not to, he was like, what he decided in that moment was not so much, yes, let's run off with the money, or I should have it all for myself. It was, you're going to be a problem no matter how this shakes out. And he was like, I'm just gonna dispatch it. And that's honestly, his ruthlessness is what makes him the best agent. And why he becomes such a good field operative because he makes decisions and he commits and he gets stuff done. Steph, I'm sorry. Carry on. Steph: No, no, it's fine. It's fine. Um, but, but yeah. Yeah. Uh, like in the, in the first episode, Cass. Kills a guy for self-defense and then kills the other guy because Right. Like yeah. To, to cover it up Dave: it was the only one who was getting back like, Steph: it, it tells you a lot about who the character is because I, I did not expect that. Yeah. Marcos: of shocking at, at first. I'm like, he's not, he's going up Blame. Oh, Dave: oh, I totally expected it. I, I felt like that was the direction the tone was going. James: well, well, that was also exactly how we are introduced to and or in Rogue One. His opening move is to shoot somebody that it was convenient to shoot at the time, like it, it was to, to get him from point A to point B. He knew it was a loose end. He had to tie it up. He didn't think super hard about it. Shot the dude, moved on, (I think an interjection will be put in here: What's drawing us into or out of the show really hinges on the Star Warsiness of it. We have along discussion about the nature of Star Wars which continues really for the next question. I think everyone acknowledges that it's a good show, it's well made, the visuals play well into the themes of the story, characters have arcs and develop well but opinions are divided som ewhat about whether this was a true Star Wars show and whether that even matters. This IP can't escape its storied legacy. That's what led me to ask my next question. As the IP of Star Wars ages and matures or digresses from the path, how is it changing and adapting?) James - Interjection: what's drawing us into or out of the show, really hinges on the star wars, easiness of it. I think everyone acknowledges that it's a good show. It's well-made the visuals play well into the themes of the stories. Characters have arcs and develop well, but opinions are divided somewhat about whether this was a true star wars show. Did the characters just the way I liked or was appropriate to the theme. Did we get the cheesy seen wipes? We're used to (did the characters dress the way I liked, did we get the cheesy scene wipes we're used to) James - Interjection: And whether that even matters. This IP can't really escape. It's storied legacy. That's what led me to ask my next question. As the IP of star wars, ages and matures, and it perhaps digresses from its path. How is it changing and adapting? Question #3: AJ --- AJ: Yeah. I definitely feel like these in particular, Mandalorian to some extent, and then Andor a hundred percent, have just kind of pulled down and, and to, to look at the, the human experience more, which I find interesting. I've never really, I, I guess as, as a youth, as, as the youths, I used to, to watch Star Wars for the fantasy of it. As I've gotten older and more cynical, I kind of feel like I need that, that look at life the way it is. And knowing, getting to see like. Steph: the, AJ: The machinations behind the rebellion, getting to see, how, The Empire yes, is tyrannical, but it's really tyrannical because of its c e o, its top emperor. It's, it's really those, those decisions are coming from up high and trickling down and hurting everybody at the lowest end, where a lot of the people in the middle are just trying to have order and, and, and not chaos throughout this entire galaxy. And it's really interesting to see those, those dynamics of like, oh, those shades of gray. Like, oh, the rebels do some pretty terrible things to get rid of this tyrant at the top. And oh, these imperials are just, they're just trying to live and like create some order out of the insanity of life. So I've, I've found that to be kind of, an interesting way to go about it as well as them delving in. I have a feeling that if they continue doing movies, it won't continue going that route. They will continue with the, the high fantasy. And I think that their, their IP for the TV shows will continue to digress more into this human nature idea as opposed to the movies kind of keeping the, the light and fancy Jedi and mystical powers and high James: So you think there's a bit of a media split happen? AJ: I do. James: And, and that's, that's got some history to it as well with, again, like the extended universe's focus on more of a sci-fi element to it and allowing the movies to do that. And then you've got KOTOR and things like that that kept the sort of very high fantasy Sal. So that's Knights of the Old Republic, the, one of BioWare's gifts to the world. , and is just that, just an exceptional game. But that was very much, it kind of had a bit of both, you know, it was a very high fantasy, exciting thing, but they also had like court drama and stuff randomly in there. And some pretty bleak stuff AJ: interesting gray areas. James: Yeah. It's kind of fascinating. but it's interesting to see that as a split down media as well. That's so good observation, AJ yeah. And Steph, go for it. Question #3: Steph --- Steph: Yeah, I feel like they are kind of disconnecting genre from setting for a lot of this, right? Like, I, I wholly agree with Dave that it, and, or doesn't feel like Star Wars because it doesn't fit the, the core genre that you would consider Star Wars. But I feel like the, the Disney is taking Star Wars as an IP James: as the 19 Steph: and expanding it beyond the Skywalker family saga, right? There's fascism at the top and rebels at the bottom, and what is everyone in the middle doing? Right? It's not just, there's an emperor and a few people , are the power that can overthrow him. It's, there's underlings that are enforcing his rules that are making people's lives miserable. There's people in the middle that are just trying to get by and, they're exploring all of the areas that this touches, which gives you the noir, it gives you the heist flick, it gives you the spy thriller, right? It gives you different genres within the Star Wars world. So, so I, I feel like they're just kind of pushing the limits, you know, seeing where they can take it. James: Um, Steph: Poking to see what hits and what misses. Right. Because, I don't, I don't think they know what's gonna be successful or not all the time. Right? Mandalorian did. Well, Boba Fett didn't, Obi Wan didn't Andor's done well. I think they're just, you know, kind of feeling out the limits. Question #3: Dave --- Dave: Think, yeah, I, I kind of, it's, I can't really disagree with anything that anyone else has said. It's just, it's mostly just a matter of, I don't like the direction. Um, and I think, I think one thing I would say is like, I think it's more than that. I guess, I guess my, my biggest pushback to, like what Steph said would be, it's more than just changing the, the genre, and this is kind of all interconnected, but it's changing the tone, which we've discussed earlier. Star Wars is a, an optimistic, and even though there are tragedies and, and terrible things that happen in it, it's an optimistic and victorious, story. That's what I'm accustomed to. And you know, going back to when I was first introduced to Star Wars, it was something that my whole family would sit around and watch Star Wars. There were five of us. We have. very different tastes. My parents are not Sci-fi fans and they will tell you that straight up, but some of their favorite movies include Star Wars and, , Back to the Future. And, now this, I guess is more fantasy, but Indiana Jones, they love characters and people and the Star Wars movies that I love, the content I love is about lovable characters. And so, Andor was unlikeable people doing terrible things and I did not care for it. I mean, I shouldn't even say I didn't care for it. It's not my speed. I don't like the crime drama Breaking Bad, sopranos type stuff. I don't want to tune in to see what horrible things are happening this week. I want to tune in to see characters I love. So it's not my bag and it is my, one of my top ips. So that's where I got kind of like, . I mean, I don't think I got out over my skis, but I, I'm defensive of it as a, as , kind of my thing. Something that's from my childhood. And my family would not sit around and watch Andor like, that's kind of like, AJ: That's fair. Yeah. Dave: that's a big part of like what it, what it is and why it got such a reaction from me as it did. In terms of quality of a show and being well written and well thought out, I think Andor was, was top notch. But I would much rather watch The Mandalorian, which is a new property, digs into a different side of, of the Star Wars universe. It's a bit different genre wise. It's a little more spaghetti western, but it's about family, it's about the individuals and it's, it's lovable ne'erdowells and, and space wizards. and it's a lot of fun. I mean, I love the Solo movie as well, and that one did not, that one did not go over well, but I thought it was great. It was a great high school. AJ: why. It was Dave: Oh it was. And honestly, Donald, Donald Glover as Marcos: Oh, Steph: yeah. No, a hundred percent James: Excellent cast like he was, he nailed it. Yeah. No, I, I, I, I I think that's, that is very well encapsulated, Dave. Like, that kind of like covers it is, I get it. Like it's, I similar for me with uh, Lord of the Rings, right? Like I could get all of Suzanne's family to Lord of the Rings, you know what I mean? Like, I could get my whole family to turn up at the movie theater for Lord of the Rings. Where, where there are very few other things I like, a lot of these guys do not love fantasy. They're not gonna come to me and start talking about the Wizards of Earth Sea or anything, but like, they'll watch. You know, because it was fun and it was, it was, there was depth and there was meaning and like different sort of thing from like Star Wars. But having that memory of, of watching the sort of swashbuckling and like, I honestly, even as I think about it, I think my introduction to the series was prequels. And I have such fond memories of being really excited to see Anakin like jump into battle with his light saber and feeling like that thrill of just like, ah, it's coming, it's coming. And like, you know, the, the kind of highs and lows of that sort of, sort of schlocky, puy, adventure, joy that I get from it. But Dave: so much fun to watch. James: yeah, Dave: It was so much fun to watch them like chop battle droids to pieces. James: it Dave: no whole, you can just, if it's a robot, you can dismember it. That is like the number one thing about. James: finally. Yeah. I had to turn that feature on whenever I played Jedi Academy. Um, but, uh, yeah. Question #3: Marcos --- Marcos: Fans of the WorldCraft Club are gonna remember James and I talking about, in a previous episode named, does Your World have potential about this? We talked about Star Wars being a story world, and we were unpacking the idea of a story world. In a nutshell, a story world basically is a world that, you look at it and you're like, oh my gosh, I can tell so many stories with just this. You know, it is not tied down to a specific character. It's not tied down to a specific faction or way of, or, or a specific medium even. Steph: Um, Marcos: you know, it's just space. You know, empire Space Wizards, laser Swords, rebellion, and X Wings. This is great. Great. So many stories can come out of just that. and as. more hands go on deck and more studios finally get their crack, at telling, a different story, the more, branching Star Wars is gonna be. You know, it's going to go from, you're gonna have your high fantasy and then it's gonna branch off into spaghetti Western, and then it's going to branch off into, uh, war drama, you know, and an award stuff. Even in the Obi Wan show, when he is going to rescue, princess Leia, The whole setting just looked like cyberpunk. And even you got some of that kind of cyberpunks in, Boba Fett, the book of Boba Fett too, which were underutilized, but that's a whole other tangent I don't wanna get into. I hear what, what, what, is being said. And I agree, I agree with , AJ that the mainline Star Wars are always gonna be like high fantasy, optimistic victory, ura, light saber wins the day, kind of, kind of deal. Um, and, but I also understand and I can appreciate, they've, Dave, you, this just wasn't your cup of tea and it's just acknowledging Yeah, it's branched off. and I acknowledge that as well. The tone and theme, not the tone and, genre, the way, and even the cinematography has branched off from its source material. But I think, James: off. But Marcos: I think, we can always count on the mainline movies always being a certain way. , I remember showrunners talking about their, supporting cast, their secondary character. You have your main character and then you have the supporting character that happens to be some people's fan favorite James: be, Marcos: and the showrunners would talk about. Yeah. We liked writing for this character because we were able to, do some risks and experiment with some stories and some messages that we would never dare do with the main character. And I think that's what's happening to Star Wars right now. The movies are the main character. You're always gonna come back, you're always gonna know what you're gonna expect. And now these little shows are gonna be their experimental projects that they're able to kind of push it and you're not gonna like the supporting character, We are taking this world of Star Wars and a galaxy far, far away, that there are so many stories to tell. And if you wanna tell a very boots on the ground, human, spark of the rebellion, kind of this, this pot that's just steaming and steaming and boiling over until it just, we've had it, it's going to be grim all the way until that breaking point at the end. And that kind of story may not be best told in a very James: very, Marcos: high fantasy, positive light. It is meant to be dark. That doesn't have to be your cup of. That's fine. James - Interjection: What I find interesting about star wars. Is that in the end, it's really a family affair. Most of us didn't find or discover Star Wars on our own. Our parents showed us. We watched it with our families. This means that our memories of this IP are tied up in those memories and deep nostalgia. It might explain the sort of near religious fanaticism that some folks feel towards it. It's hallowed ground in some ways, part of the story that we tell ourselves about ourselves. You'll see in star wars that there are deep generational divides, depending on where people arrived in the IP. And that IP is always changing. I think that there's a lot of validity to the media divide that was noted by AJ and Steph. And this idea of the disconnect between genre and setting is fascinating. And again, it can only occur in an IP that has grown venerable enough to sustain those shifts in tone. As Marcus had said, I think in, Andor we're seeing more human stories with deeper and richer shades of gray because different folks can try their hand and experiment with plots. They might not have otherwise tried. And a lot of us enjoy this pivot, the stories feel richer and more complex, the characters compelling and nuanced, but I think resistance to these changes also make sense to me and I can't help, but have some sympathy for it. For those of us who remember lining up to see the Phantom Menace with our families or sitting on the couch with our families in a moment of relaxed enjoyment with all conflicts, forgotten for a moment to enjoy something together. It doesn't seem unreasonable to mourn for the loss of that. (Star Wars' changing and adapting is a case study in the growth of legacy IPs and a reminder that you really just can't satisfy everyone, especially with a fanbase that has grown this broad and deep. Key takeaways for this roundtable, I think, include the following: - Convey your setting with confidence, this is an echoing response you should all have on your WorldCraft Club bingo cards by now. Some elements of a given setting just don't require as much explanation as you might think. Ferrix might be the best example of this, they simply let the culture of that planet be. No pauses for exposition just a unique place with a distinctive culture. Trust your audience and throw them into your setting. - Let your setting communicate your story's themes. From the brutal concrete exterior of Luthen's antiquities store, the Imperial counter insurgency headquarters, Mon Mothma's apartment, they all said something about the characters that inhabit them and the stories that were being told about them, consider this when writing your stories. - If you develop a world as rich and engrossing as Star Wars many sins can be forgiven. The discussion of the lack of aliens on the prison planet is explainable but I doubt the showrunners necessarily thought about it as hard as we did. As a group we were willing to not just forgive the apparent oversight but to create alongside them to make a richer setting. So that about wraps us up. I should let you know that we won't be around for a minute after this one, Seth and I are cooking something up and it's going to eat up a lot of time so we're putting the podcast on a two month hiatus, after which we'll start up again with biweekly updates. If you want to join in on conversations like this one we have them all the time on our Discord server connected in the LinkTree on the shownotes. The community there is always crafting and creating new stuff, debating ideas and growing as creators, we'd love for you to join us. Oh, and if you love the show, please give us a rating and review on your podcatching app, and feedback is always welcome via email or on any of our social media outlets. For AJ, Dave, Marcos, and Steph, I'm James and this has been the WorldCraft Club Podcast. Catch you next time.) James - Interjection: Star Wars is changing and adapting is a case study in the growth of legacy IPS. And a reminder that you really just can't satisfy everyone. Especially with the fan base that has grown this broad and deep. Key takeaways for this round table, I think include the following. Convey your setting with confidence. This is an echoing response you should already have on your WorldCraft Club. Bingo cards by now. Some elements of a given setting just don't require as much explanation as you, the creator might think. Ferrix might be the best example of this. They simply let the culture of that planet be no pauses for exposition about why we have this guy smacking an Advil on the top of a tower. We'll ignore the specific, almost the Tai Chi movements he engages in before he gets started. Just a unique place with a distinctive culture. Trust your audience and throw them into your setting. Let your setting communicate your stories. Themes. From the brutal concrete exterior of Luthen's antiquity store, the Imperial counterinsurgency headquarters, Mon Martha's apartment, they all said something about the characters that inhabit them and the stories that were being told about them. Consider this when writing your stories. If you develop a world as rich and engrossing as Star Wars. Many sins can be forgiven. The discussion, the lack of aliens on the prison planet is explainable, but I doubt the show runners necessarily thought about it. As hard as we did as a group, we were willing not just to forgive the apparent oversight, but to create alongside them and make a richer setting. This is something we do well to recognize when we're crafting our own stuff. A lot of these sorts of sins can be forgiven in a world that is already rich and engrossing. You don't need to have everything figured out. So that about wraps us up. I should let you know that we won't be around for a minute after this one, Seth and I are cooking up something and it's going to eat up a lot of my time. So we're putting the podcasts on a two month hiatus after which we'll start up again with the bi-weekly updates or at least roughly biweekly updates. If you want to join in on conversations like this one, we have them all the time on our discord server connected in the link tree in the show notes. The community there is always crafting and creating new stuff, debating ideas, and growing as creators. We'd love for you to join us. Oh, and if you love the show, please give us a rating and review on your favorite podcasting app. And feedback is always welcomed via email or on any of our social media outlets for AAJ, Dave Marcus and Steph I'm James. And this has been the WorldCraft Club podcast. Catch you next time. Stinger --- Dave: Mandalorians used them to kill Jedi. That's, that's like their origin in universe. James: I love the way that it's like, here's how we'll defeat them guns . Like instead of using these weirdly slow firing plasma bolts that can apparently be deflected by, you know, the magic laser swords, we're Dave: oh, AJ: elegant weapons.