Episode Transcript
When we worldbuild, we have someone in mind as our reader. We wonder what they might like, what they might want to read, and then how to label it so they find it. Let's talk about genre.
Welcome to The Worldcraft Club, a show for writers who want to create rich, immersive settings that'll bring their readers back time and time again.
I'm your host, James, and I'm joined by Seth today, discussing the impact of genre on his writing. Given that he's now completed dozens of books, he has some strong opinions about the role genre has played in his work, and how it's helped him reach audiences, and at times, how it's restricted his work, and limited his worldbuilding. g.
We'll kick it off here, Seth. Um, we've been starting to talk about genre, and from your professional perspective, you've written, I think, 150 books now.
Um, what's, what's your, what's your definitive sort of initial take on genre? Oh man,
I have to admit that I have some, some really Potentially spicy opinions about genres. Um, so I have, I have a lot of thoughts on this, on this subject. Um, and so hopefully throughout this conversation, we can sort of narrow it in on some stuff that's going to be helpful for people listening, but, um, Man, I mean, genres are, at their core, a way of, of communicating to an audience what something is about.
And um, they are both a tremendous boon in that they clearly set expectation, and they are at the same time a prison in that they clearly set expectation. Thank you. And so, as an author, I have a love hate relationship with genre, because I often find myself wanting to mix genres or write different and new things, but, when you write inside a genre, you're Again, it's both a boon and a curse, right?
You're, you're aided by the expectations that the readers have, and you are hampered by the expectations that the readers have. Um, at the core though, uh, I genuinely believe that genres are not for authors. Genres are a marketing tool used by companies that want to sell products to a consumer base and need, um, shorthand for how to allow consumers to self identify into categories so that they know who their target audience is, who they're selling to, etc.
Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a truncated elevator pitch, right? So like, Yes. You have an elevator pitch and like, I know that you'll have, you know, a series of them in mind for the books that you're writing. Right. This is really more like, You're driving by somebody who looks like they might be a producer or a publisher and have an interest in what you're making and you have the opportunity to heckle them out the window.
Yes. And this is what you tell them. Right. Exactly. Yeah. It's like, it gives them, it gives them that, that, that vibe. And it's a categorization. Well, and cause that,
you know, part of the problem there is like, okay, you say science fiction. This is a science fiction story.
Right. Right. Right. Right.
When you actually like, stop, and pause, and try to parse out what that means, it means nothing. Oh yeah. Right? It means that there is a rough collection of, of tropes that, that audience member or a, a reader might expect to get in your story. But there's no guarantee that any of them are there.
Yeah. Right. Like science fiction, science, like, and this is where the fights are going to start. Yeah. You know, genres do have, have exact definitions. Yeah. Right. So like science fiction, um, is stories that deal with future technology. Yeah. That impact the world. Yeah. Right. And, um, And people argue about that.
Some people might say science fiction is actually stories in which, uh, you, you are looking at or stories about, um, technology impacting the world, right? Okay. But so Star Wars, yeah. Is it sci fi? It's not about the technology. Yeah. It's about space wizards. So is it? Is it fantasy? But it's about technology because they've got spaceships.
But it's not actually about any of those things. It's about relationships between characters, right? So that's where all of this gets really messy, is that, is that we have these categorizations, but the categorizations are never precise enough to tell us what something actually is, right? And, and the best stories are not just strictly one thing.
They're, they're amalgamations of, of relatable tropes and, and, uh, plot lines and character interactions and, you know, and all of these different things. And so from a, from a storytelling perspective, from a, from an author's perspective, again, I have this love hate relationship with genre because, because I want to tell the stories I want to tell.
And whenever, whenever. We start talking about genre. It starts to draw immediate boundaries around what I can do and what I can't do. Right now, we talk about boundaries a lot in our worldbuilding, right? Really positively. Yeah, absolutely. Positively. Yeah.
Yeah.
And so, especially as a newer writer, I found genre helpful because I could say, Oh, this is fantasy, which means that the technology in the story can't be what the story is about.
Yeah. Right. Because that's starting to get into sci fi, or at least with future technology, right? You can have a fantasy where the, um, somebody invents a water wheel. And that technology starts to spread and impact society, right? Um, but when we get in, like, I know very clearly that in my fantasy story, I'm not going to have future technology.
All the technology has to be present. Past technology. Yeah, right. So there are helpful boundaries in that sense or at least they were they were more helpful when I was a newer writer Yeah, but the more I write the more I find myself just throwing genre Sort of out the window.
That's interesting,
right?
Especially in my world building and this is and this is a A sort of difficult thing to parse because on the one hand, I just try as much as possible to not let genre convention, um, bog me down when I'm building worlds or building stories in those worlds. But at the same time, I have to be able to communicate to my readers what the story is about and what the genre is about.
What's challenging about this for Seth and I is that we're largely in favor of simplicity. Condensing a world down into its smallest possible configuration. Something like an elevator pitch. Using this basic 'Core concept, you can always go back to what drew you to the setting and the setting's role in your story.
It carries a lot of the weight of your worldbuilding and provides a fast test to see if an idea you're toying with works. It's a bit like a mission statement. But genre seems to take this too far. Perspective readers, when looking into your book, will start with the question of genre.
It's the widest part of your sales funnel, so it feels necessary to lay one out, but the constraints of the genre can be stifling. It's zoomed out too far. straddles some genre conventions, and how he talks about this with those who ask.
this is what's what's tricky. Yeah. Because like I write stories that have romance in them, and depending on who I'm talking to about the story, I will emphasize or de-emphasize what the story, what genres the story contains, right?
Yeah. So I might say, this is a fantasy adventure. I might say This is a fantasy adventure with slow burn romance. I might say, this is a slow burn romance set in a fantasy world, right, like, and depending on who I'm trying to sell the book to, right, I'll adjust how I talk about the book. All of those things are true.
It is a fantasy adventure, it is a slow burn romance. I'm talking about Battlemage Farmer, um, it is a, it's all of these different things, right? Um, there's mystery in it, there's a fantasy western, like, I could describe it in a million different ways. The question is, who am I trying to sell it to, and what set of descriptors sells it the best, right?
Again, that's what genre is. Genre was invented by publishing companies in order to be able to, to, you know, Categorize for, for books, at least. Yeah. Right. Um, genre has existed before that for people who are trying to categorize things academically. Yeah. Yeah. But in terms of the public perception of genre exists, so people can be sold.
Content. And so I think as a creator thinking about your story in genres is actually the wrong way to go about it.
Yeah.
And so I think instead of thinking about it. In genres, and even in worldbuilding, I think that when we start to think to ourselves, Okay, this is a science fiction world. Yeah. That's not necessarily the most helpful way to, to approach, like, it is a way.
That we can approach worldbuilding, but I don't think it's the most helpful way to approach worldbuilding. Especially if we want to have something that endures for a long time. And we want to have something that is, is going to grab readers. Really strongly. Okay. Yeah. And instead of genre, I think that we should be focused on trope.
And so this is, this is sort of my hot take.
That's where I almost wanted to go with this. Yeah. I like that.
Yeah. So if you're a creator, reject genre, embrace trope. That's, that's my, my opinion. Um, I think that financially in terms of like, uh, you're better off in terms of writing something that you enjoy more.
You're better off. In terms of writing something that can grab an audience and keep them long term, you're better off. Yeah, right. Worlds that are more engaging are worlds that have tropes that people like. Yeah, right. Because when I say, okay, this is a sci fi world, that, that tells me something about the world, But it doesn't tell me why somebody wants to stay there now It might be I mean genres also come with trope expectation They do right which is why I think that it's an approach Like it's you can build a world based on genre because what you're actually doing is Basing or you're building a world based on tropes.
Yeah, just without knowing it Yeah, and so if we can instead just cut through the fluff and go straight to the tropes and say this is the list Of tropes that I really like in a world. Yeah, right, and this is where you start to get down into Slightly more precise boundaries. Yeah, right slightly more precise core concepts Okay, this is a world that has a grimdark feel.
Grimdark is a trope, right? It's a specific set of, of ideas that we understand. You could say this world, you know, has a tyrannical ruler that, that somebody is fighting against. Yeah. It's a great trope, right? To fight against tyranny. Doing that. Instead of being like, this is strictly a fantasy world, or this is strictly a sci fi world, or this is strictly a, a cozy, you know, mystery world.
Yeah. This, like, picking your tropes instead of picking your genre allows a much finer degree of control, and more importantly, it opens you up to a much wider audience. Yeah. Because people who don't, like, some people are like, well, I only read fantasy. Yeah. Right? But then, they'll read a book that's fantasy, but has enough other stuff in it that it starts pulling them into other genres.
Yeah. Right? It starts pulling them out. And the reason is because the tropes translate all the way across. Yeah. Does that make sense?
No, no, no. This makes total sense. What I'm seeing here is the actual, so again, this will be on your WorldCraft Club bingo card for anybody listening. Uh, what it basically is is this is the sinew between worldbuilding and and narrative and story right and like a lot of times like we kept coming at this again we started off this podcast and this is the bingo card part with this idea that we were going to talk explicitly about worldbuilding but as we went further and further down the line we started to find that it gets there's there's a bit of blur they're not the same thing story and world building but they're also they are distinct but there is Overlap in them and the trope is sort of the the sinew that kind of exists between those two Concepts and really draws them together because almost what we're saying is people We're really, really big fans of taking your concepts, your big ideas, and boiling them down into one or two sentences, right?
Keep it very, very light and small. This is really good, establishes firm boundaries for you, lets you explore within a bit of a walled garden, right? Gives you that room. We don't like going too far down that. Like one or two sentences is kind of trope identification for your worldbuilding, essentially. You go a little bit beyond that into, into identifying genre.
And it's like, genre is the coat of paint you apply at the end. Like it's not, it's not the thing you start with, right? Like that's not
what you
want to build
from. That is exactly right. So genre is an identifier that you give after you have built the thing. It's not where you start. Yeah. It's where you end.
So, this is the heart of this episode's key takeaways. Don't let genre define your writing. Begin with a big idea, a core concept that you're fascinated by, something like 'a medieval world that has been desolated by dragons, then go ahead and begin the process of building out your setting and your story.
In the midst of that, identify tropes that you're looking to work with, to use as a starting point. By all means, do it. Mutate the tropes, play with them, make them your own, but allow them to guide the way your work develops. At the end, stop, take stock of what you've made, and decide what genre fits your work best, and apply it like that last coat of paint on your finished product.
Next up, I asked Seth, since now he has a few series' under his belt, if he's at times felt constrained by his previous work. As he's built his career, has he found himself typecast into a certain genre, and how does he navigate that?
Absolutely. So the, the sad truth is that once a reader Starts reading something. Yeah. That they really like, they want to read more of it. And I, I say it's a sad truth. It's not a sad truth at all. Like, it's, it is great. But, as an, as a creator, it can be a little bit stifling.
Yeah. To be like, oh, I made my name on this particular kind of story, and so, forever, if I deviate from that, or at least the fear is that if I deviate from that, people are going to be like, well, I really like that other story you wrote. When am I going to get more of that story?
Well, you become a genre.
That's the problem. Yes. You start going, I want to read Seth Ring stuff. And like, if you read something that's not Seth Ring y enough, and you want Seth Ring, Right. And you're
like, you know. And I mean, if I could get there, it would be fantastic. Yeah. Like, the upside of that The goal is
to become a genre.
Right. You don't want to become a genre.
Well, and that's, and that's the catch 22 of it, right? Yeah. Every author, like every major author we know has become a genre.
Well, I think Brandon Sanderson. Absolutely. You know what you want when you read a Sanderson book.
Right.
Right. This is why some authors even, they go by pen names to write different stuff.
Absolutely. Well,
they have to. Yeah. Because their audience is just going to say, Yeah, but do the thing, right? Exactly. You've seen that because do the thing, Bart. It becomes a, it becomes a circus trick. Yeah. Right. This person can write the thing that I want to read. And so I'm just waiting for them to continue doing that thing because, because the, like, there's a switch that happens from this is a, an artist creating their art to this is a product that has been commoditized.
That people buy, right?
It makes me think of like every actor I've seen who's made the switch. Leonardo DiCaprio was a pretty boy. Yeah, like for a while. I mean, he's still pretty. Yeah, but He, he like, he was not a serious, considered a serious actor for a long time. And then he started doing roles. I think about like, the, the thing that happens to every comedian is Is They do funny roles until they get sufficiently sad, and then they do drama.
And like, I've seen so many comedians do that. Adam Sandler, um, Jim Carrey, like a pile of them. And you're like, you used to be funny. And like, then they like turn up, and they're like, oh man, the big sad. But, you
know, what you don't realize is that, They were sad first, which is why they did the funny. That's, they're just revealing their true self to you.
No, that's a hundred percent right. But yeah, it's, it's like, so I, sorry, I'm, I'm kind of, maybe this is a dangerous link, but I think that's interesting because like, my question is, Seth, when will you get sad enough to change? Well,
so I think that there's actually something to this, right? Yeah.
Yeah.
I am currently writing a utopian thriller.
Which is not at all what I write. My stories are fun adventures, they're, they're generally uplifting, and now I'm writing a terrible book, right? It's gonna be great when it's done, but it's a book that's so just completely disconnected from everything else I've written. Yeah. And I'm, I'm legitimately wondering, like, do I release this under a pen name?
Do I, do I not put this out? Do I just write it for myself and then not put it out? Because my audience is going to take one look at it and be like this isn't this that's this is not a brand That's not as well. Yeah, that's not the Seth we know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because this is the other thing is that when you release When you release things into the public like when you release art it and it is associated with you People feel as if they know you yeah, right Which is why I think, you know, when we hear these super unfortunate events, like, um, It always makes me think of Robin Williams, right?
The fact that, that that caught, like, his death caught people by surprise is a clear example of this. We saw his art, assumed we knew him, and then we're taken aback when he, you know, you know, he takes his own life. And just as a, as a, you know, due diligence, this is why it's super important, especially as creatives, to talk to people, right?
To share those, those deep and personal parts of ourself with other people, right? Because it can be such an isolating thing to, to be typecast in a genre and not have, not feel like you have room to do or to express yourself as you really feel, right? Which is, again, one of the reasons why I have such a problem with this.
genre. Yeah. You can make a lot more money by just sticking to the, the thing. Yeah. Right. By performing your trick over and over and over and over again. Right. You can make more money doing that, but that is never going to be creatively satisfying.
Yeah.
And I think when we have that disconnect between what we feel inside and what we put out, especially as creatives.
Yeah. It, it really can mess with us. And so I'm a, that's why I'm such a proponent of, of choosing tropes that you focus on instead of choosing genres, because I have written a, um, virtual reality science fiction adventure, right? The Titan series. I have written a, uh, worldbuilding. Sort of western post apocalyptic slow burn romance fantasy.
Yeah. Right. I have written a cosmic horror light, uh, political fantasy. Yeah. I have written a, um, sort of western adventure fantasy. Right? I'm, I'm writing all of these different genres, but because my tropes are the same, and so I'm able to express myself, right? In writing all of these different things, I'm able to express myself in all of these different ways, right?
I'm able to process how I need to process, and I'm able to explore what I need to explore. But because I have my tropes that are all the same, because I have those, those story beats that I really like, yeah. consistent across, my audience likes them as well, right? And so they'll read all of these different stories and they'll be like, Oh, I didn't, I don't normally read this genre, but this is actually really good and fun and interesting.
Right. And so I think that that's the way to cross that tension because there is a tension there between what my audience expects for me and what I can give them. on a creative level without, without harming myself. Sorry for taking this episode in a really like dark direction, but I think it's important to talk about.
Conclusion
So this is where I close things out for the interview. I think it's important to note here that success comes with its difficulties. There is that possibility of getting typecast into a role you no longer want to play as a writer. This is why, for your long term sanity, it's wise to instead focus on tropes that you love, again, with your own flair and artistic direction, that you want to write about.
So, that about does it for this episode. If you want to see our smiling faces and enjoy a slightly more visual experience, find us on our YouTube channel. If you'd like to hang out with us and talk face to face, digitally, I'm always hanging around the Discord server where we have great conversations like this daily and weekly meetups where we talk about writing, worldbuilding, and of course massively goof off.
All the links are available in the show notes. . For Seth, I'm James. Thanks to our producer, Dave, and our video editor, AJ. And a special thanks to you, dear listener, for listening to The WorldCraft Club. I'll catch you next time.
